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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 12-18-2017, 01:05 AM   #169
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All joking aside. I think with the upgraded 17s by adding headers-full exhaust valve springs, tune, highflow air filter you could get to 8k revs and around 220-45 hp.
Based on dynos the power starts dropping around 6800-7000 rpm with those mods.
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Old 12-18-2017, 01:42 AM   #170
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Based on dynos the power starts dropping around 6800-7000 rpm with those mods.
I forgot to add the Crawford power blocks lol

True some results have shown that.

But every dyno and car and location is diffrent. There maybe a recipe with parts or not. The potential is there we just haven’t found the correct combo to unlock it yet there are just so many variables to account for I still have my hopes up.
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:52 AM   #171
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But also most combinations of bolt-on mods shown some wall of ~+40whp NA as max for these. I don't believe anymore in any magic part to "unlock". IDDQD or IDQFA won't work. At most it's question of what minimum set of parts can be used to get most of that limit, like eg. ace's A350 with proper tune getting. But wall/limit still will be there.
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:35 AM   #172
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I forgot to add the Crawford power blocks lol

True some results have shown that.

But every dyno and car and location is diffrent. There maybe a recipe with parts or not. The potential is there we just haven’t found the correct combo to unlock it yet there are just so many variables to account for I still have my hopes up.
Crawford or other manifold spacers will shift power band lower in rpm range
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:43 AM   #173
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All joking aside. I think with the upgraded 17s by adding headers-full exhaust valve springs, tune, highflow air filter you could get to 8k revs and around 220-45 hp. I’m not a fan of the e85 but that could push even farther. After that it comes down to major $$ to start changing major internals and going to a higher compression ratio. Or a full out custom job like Celek is doing but it has taken him year+ and he is still not done but when it is I can’t wait to see the results. The fa20 engine imho will exceed the s2k engine with more time and work done on it. We know it can hold the pressures of FI and the high hp. Now it just needs to be tuned for n/a. Sad thing is n/a is so much harder and $$ takes proper attention to all details. I would have love to see this engine with a mechanical throttle though true N/A should have one.
AFAIK the 17 motor is pretty much the same as the old motor (few little mods to improve reliability) but heads valves cams all the same.

the 5kw power came due to better stock tune (although you only seem to get the additional power for a short period then tune goes rich to cool cats). It got slightly better stock header and slightly better intake/filter. The new manifold doesnt seem to do much NA.

Couple of guys on here modded up 17 with header/exhaust tune and ended up with same power as the old motor which isnt surprising.

The other isse your going to run into trying to rev it harder is oil pressure, it doesnt make good pressure at high rpm, so your going to need oiling mods.

Have a look at Chris eleks build @celek i think, its still not finished and hes spending considerable amounts of money (he builds engines)
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Old 12-18-2017, 07:36 AM   #174
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But also most combinations of bolt-on mods shown some wall of ~+40whp NA as max for these. I don't believe anymore in any magic part to "unlock". IDDQD or IDQFA won't work. At most it's question of what minimum set of parts can be used to get most of that limit, like eg. ace's A350 with proper tune getting. But wall/limit still will be there.
Newly installed ACE A350 & ACE overpipe with a catted hi-flo front pipe, exhaust and tune has transformed my '17 Perf. Pkg. car. I'm still getting tune revisions because the timing curve hasn't maxed out yet. I had a new '04 S2000 and it was a beautifully made thing, but from what I recall it was a stone from a stop, much like the torque dip version of my car before the mods. Now the power is linear and strong from launch to around 4500rpm where it actually comes on in a very VTEC-like manner and pulls to redline.
But my concern was not max power (I'm not even certain I care about a dyno reading altho my tuner "strongly recommended" I get one because of the fun he's having tuning it for me) and i have no interest in FI for my DD/seasonal track car, especially since the rest of the car (suspension components, fuel delivery, oiling, cooling, etc, etc) should be upgraded to accommodate the blown power.
I've had several turbos, STIs, 944t & RX-7 R1, all great cars but the lag & heat they produce just aren't to my liking.
So for about $3600K with installation my engine's complete, not cheap I guess, but my gawd this car is soo much better than stock. It's nice to feel done with something. But of course coilovers, E85 are lurking out there if I ever feel like spending...
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Old 12-18-2017, 07:56 AM   #175
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Try SC. Imho very NA-ish feel, and able to get past current NA max gains with ease.
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Old 12-18-2017, 09:46 AM   #176
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AFAIK the 17 motor is pretty much the same as the old motor (few little mods to improve reliability) but heads valves cams all the same.

the 5kw power came due to better stock tune (although you only seem to get the additional power for a short period then tune goes rich to cool cats). It got slightly better stock header and slightly better intake/filter. The new manifold doesnt seem to do much NA.

Couple of guys on here modded up 17 with header/exhaust tune and ended up with same power as the old motor which isnt surprising.

The other isse your going to run into trying to rev it harder is oil pressure, it doesnt make good pressure at high rpm, so your going to need oiling mods.

Have a look at Chris eleks build @celek i think, its still not finished and hes spending considerable amounts of money (he builds engines)
I know that’s why I referenced Celek in my post. But you must understand he spent $$ and time. But look at his results you also see that he increased to 2.3l if I remember correctly and he’s projected 9k rpm and over 300hp if I remember correctly as well. But it is still the og block. So I say again the possibility’s are out there and we need to find out what they are. I also said in my post that yes you could see around 8k but even with bolt on and tunes it will take $$ and time to really find out what this engine can do. Celek is one of the smartest and talented people I’ve talked with. Like I said it will take time and $$. Remember this car is a drivers car not a dyno queen. I am not going to go nuts for power I will be happy with around 240 if I can get that I love the way this car handles and rides I also plan on keeping it for a vary long time. I can’t wait to see what comes down the road as they explore more from this platform.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:27 AM   #177
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But also most combinations of bolt-on mods shown some wall of ~+40whp NA as max for these. I don't believe anymore in any magic part to "unlock". IDDQD or IDQFA won't work. At most it's question of what minimum set of parts can be used to get most of that limit, like eg. ace's A350 with proper tune getting. But wall/limit still will be there.
I think you'd want the A150 for the 8k rpm range.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:32 AM   #178
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But every dyno and car and location is diffrent. There maybe a recipe with parts or not. The potential is there we just haven’t found the correct combo to unlock it yet there are just so many variables to account for I still have my hopes up.
The secret ingredient is the cams. Every dyno is different but the trend is the same with power drop off.
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Old 12-18-2017, 12:13 PM   #179
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All joking aside. I think with the upgraded 17s by adding headers-full exhaust valve springs, tune, highflow air filter you could get to 8k revs and around 220-45 hp. I’m not a fan of the e85 but that could push even farther. After that it comes down to major $$ to start changing major internals and going to a higher compression ratio. Or a full out custom job like Celek is doing but it has taken him year+ and he is still not done but when it is I can’t wait to see the results. The fa20 engine imho will exceed the s2k engine with more time and work done on it. We know it can hold the pressures of FI and the high hp. Now it just needs to be tuned for n/a. Sad thing is n/a is so much harder and $$ takes proper attention to all details. I would have love to see this engine with a mechanical throttle though true N/A should have one.
I agree starting with the 17s is probably best for max NA potential, but I disagree that we'll exceed the F20C. The heads flow *much* better on the F20C from everything I've seen. For FI, look at the dyno graphs of a C30-91 rotrex blower on the s2k vs. the 86 for a good example. Also, the F20C has been able to hit ~300whp NA I believe.

I understand the support for our chassis (likely stiffer with a lower COG than the s2k), but our engine is simply inferiour to the F20C.
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:18 PM   #180
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...but our engine is simply inferiour to the F20C.
Yet if you compare torque curves the FA20 has more torque for quite a large part of the rev band. The F20 makes it's power due to the extra RPM. If only peak power is key, then yes the F20 is superior.

Ps. I've come from a B-Series R engine to this car, so I understand the pros and cons...... man I miss my EK at times.
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Old 12-18-2017, 04:20 PM   #181
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@Zentec agree :-)


I suppose my point is with basic mods NA the 2017 motor will be about same power potential.


unless your going to spend craploads of money time effort and have the resources like Chris eleck, your not going to get much more out of the motors NA.


ive no idea how much money he invested in his build (and good on him for doing it and having a go) but the amounts would be very substantial, I suspect when most people found out the cost they would no longer be interested.





most will end up bolting on a fairly low boost SC or turbo kit to gain some power and keep the reliability and still do it at a relatively cheap price compared to trying to extract power NA.

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Old 12-18-2017, 04:42 PM   #182
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To me biggest signal of NA limits & lack of futureproof potential was turbo on new civic type-r. In my eyes Honda had best NA engines (at this class of cars/engines), but if even them finally gave up following suite of other manufacturers going FI sooner, i guess it takes too much effort to keep up this game with higher and higher eco limitations if one ties oneself with just NA. Hats off to toyobaru for this engine, but it might be among last engines of dying breed of reasonably priced high output car NA engines (supercar engines are just exceptions proving rule)
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