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Old 07-04-2015, 07:03 PM   #169
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I don't get the hate for this engine at all compared to any other 2.0L engine. They are all torqueless wonders but this engine is more special to me than a typical V or Inline engine that is the norm.
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Old 07-04-2015, 07:51 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by rice_classic View Post
I think a 2.0, 2.2 or 2.4L Inline 4 would have been ideal and would have provided plenty of room for double arm suspension.

I'm not the biggest fan of the FA20, and while I know I've been spoiled by Hondas engines over the years, the FA20 seems very unrefined. The 200HP is plenty of power for me but the NVH of this engine, the layout and power delivery are below expectations along with the silly go-forward-before-you-go-back header layout (but I understand packaging restrictions). Folks can go on and on about the CoG but an inline 4 with proper double arm suspension would be superior to this.

I too bought this car despite the engine.
You do know Porsche uses MacStruts right? Yet I only see the best reviews of their cars in general. Also I have owned a K20 before and I can't understand how you think that buzzy, unrefined crap is more refined than the FA20. That was the main reason I hated my RSX even though it was reliable.
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:10 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 View Post
You do know Porsche uses MacStruts right? Yet I only see the best reviews of their cars in general. Also I have owned a K20 before and I can't understand how you think that buzzy, unrefined crap is more refined than the FA20. That was the main reason I hated my RSX even though it was reliable.
Now, did you have a rsx type-s, or a base rsx?
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:27 PM   #172
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Now, did you have a rsx type-s, or a base rsx?
Base but the type S engine wasn't anything special either in the under 6k rpm range. I find it funny Honda engine lovers hating on other torqueless motors when HONDA invented the term..lol
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:34 PM   #173
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So if we like the engine we are just wrong and it is hyperbole?
No, nor did I say it was
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You say everybody doesn't respect opinions and then proceed to run down those with differing opinions?
Didn't do that either.. I didn't call out anyone with a differening opinion, I called out false arguments and ad hominem attacks, which are things that should be called out. If you tell me you think the FA20 isn't a good boxer engine and I try to counter with "but what about the testerossa?" That's a false argument because the testy doesn't have an FA20... You see that line of reasoning is called "Arguing a false premise."
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Nobody here can be inspired by this engin because you are not?
We have the ability to quote things, did I say this? Or are you "arguing a false premise"? Please quote where I said (or even eluded to) that because I don't enjoy this engine other cannot?
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Pointing out that a particular lead engineer (it was made by two full teams not one dude) planned the car the way it is becomes deification?
Come on Rice throughout yor post you managed to hit almost every high point that you were calling others out for.
Well, in some cases. Yes. This is a natural tendency of humans though, we tend to put people on too high of pedestals. Having one person say, "I don't really like this" and the counter is, "But so-and-so engineer made it!" It's a version of deification because it assumes that any critique of said person is automatically wrong. As for doing the thing I'm calling others out for, I did not use false logic arguments or personal attacks in an attempt to shed light on such things... with the exception of the Testaross retort.
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I felt the car sits way to high stock and the standard exhaust is feeble at best so I changed them. End of story and I don't feel the need to tell everybody here that they are fools for leaving it or not changing to exactly what I think they should have. People are perfectly satisfied with this engine but if you are not inspired then change it don't tell us we can't be inspired by it.
You're doing it wrong.
I am attacking false logic, personal attacks and strawmans. I never told you that you cannot be inspired by the FA20, I just stated a dissenting opinion. Maybe you're projecting? It seems like you're being defensive very defensive and perhaps you're very fond of this engine but I didn't say you couldn't be.
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:49 PM   #174
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No, nor did I say it was

Didn't do that either.. I didn't call out anyone with a differening opinion, I called out false arguments and ad hominem attacks, which are things that should be called out. If you tell me you think the FA20 isn't a good boxer engine and I try to counter with "but what about the testerossa?" That's a false argument because the testy doesn't have an FA20... You see that line of reasoning is called "Arguing a false premise."

We have the ability to quote things, did I say this? Or are you "arguing a false premise"? Please quote where I said (or even eluded to) that because I don't enjoy this engine other cannot?

Well, in some cases. Yes. This is a natural tendency of humans though, we tend to put people on too high of pedestals. Having one person say, "I don't really like this" and the counter is, "But so-and-so engineer made it!" It's a version of deification because it assumes that any critique of said person is automatically wrong. As for doing the thing I'm calling others out for, I did not use false logic arguments or personal attacks in an attempt to shed light on such things... with the exception of the Testaross retort.


You're doing it wrong.
I am attacking false logic, personal attacks and strawmans. I never told you that you cannot be inspired by the FA20, I just stated a dissenting opinion. Maybe you're projecting? It seems like you're being defensive very defensive and perhaps you're very fond of this engine but I didn't say you couldn't be.
Possibly read more into what you wrote than what you intended. I think we pretty much agree but the interpretations of writing styles make it appear otherwise.
Not a fan nor hater of this engine. It works for what I need and that is all I care about.
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Old 07-04-2015, 08:55 PM   #175
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You do know Porsche uses MacStruts right? Yet I only see the best reviews of their cars in general. Also I have owned a K20 before and I can't understand how you think that buzzy, unrefined crap is more refined than the FA20. That was the main reason I hated my RSX even though it was reliable.
I'm with you about the RSX but what does the fact that Porsche using Struts have to do with making the case for struts? They aren't garbage, but you don't need a degree in geometry to understand that a double arm setup gives you more flexibility in chassis setup and has a greater potential to utilize a tire's contact patch, that's not opinion and lots of data backs that up. Porsche also puts the engine in the wrong place in their 911's but that fact alone doesn't mean that putting an engine behind the rear axles is ideal especially for other cars.

In many cars the delta in performance between the two is very small but in others it's huge (like your RSX, and all FWD cars for that matter).

I did like the D, B and F engines.
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Old 07-04-2015, 09:07 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by rice_classic View Post
This thread delivers!

Rarely have I seen so many false comparisons, such dramatic hyperbole, creative strawmans, ad hominems and biased narratives to counter was is perfectly legitimate opinion.

Dude1: "I don't really like this engine"
Dude2: "But boxer engines in Porsche and Ferrari!"

Dude1: "I bought this car despite it's engine"
Dude2: "Every boxer engine has a tq dip, and therefore they're all awesome!"
Dude3: "...And you're a retard."
Dude4: "But Tada, the Pope of engineers, got his inspiration for this car directly from God and his brilliance should never be questioned!"
Dude 5: "Yeah, shame! Shame on the heretic! How dare you stray from the gospel of Tada-san!"


Seriously.. WTF is going on here? It's a $25k Scion, not everything is brilliant, not every thing deserves praise. Some folks don't understand compartmentalization... You can have a car that you totally love while also accepting that there's things about it you don't like or wish were better, but you love it anyway. This uninspiring engine is part of the character, same with the hideous center console.. but I can love it anyway. NOHOME, myself and others still own the car right?! Exactly.

If you think this engine is the bees-knees then fine but many here have driven truly inspiring engines (some of them might actually be horizontally opposed too!) but the personal attacks, the false comparatives and deification of Tada-san is overwhelming..

Goddamn. Just goddamn.
Except none of that actually happened. The idiot OP expressed his opinion that the FA20 is not a real engine. Therefore it must be a fake engine. He did so without providing any justification, just that he didn't like it, so it must be a fake engine.

That's fucking stupid. For one of us to say so doesn't mean that person loves this engine or worships its designers. All it means is that we recognized bullshit and called it such. I was one of the first to call bullshit, but I have no real love for this engine or boxers in general. I simply appreciate what it adds to the car and recognize that it was a good choice to achieve the balance the designers wanted.

The idiot OP didn't want a discussion. He was either trolling or hoping for people who agreed with him to chime in and trash a design it's pretty obvious he doesn't understand. If he wanted a civilized discussion about the engine, he wouldn't have started with the language he used to describe it.

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So if we like the engine we are just wrong and it is hyperbole?
Apparently if you don't dislike the engine, you automatically have to think it's the best fucking engine ever made.
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Old 07-04-2015, 09:26 PM   #177
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The grass is always greener elsewhere...
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Old 07-04-2015, 09:38 PM   #178
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You can still like a engine while having issues with it. I wish the FA20 was a FA25 but I still like the engine as is. I give it a 7.5/10. With the torque dip flattened it's a 8.5/10 motor for me. And if the engine made an extra 25-35 more torque on top of the flattened torque curve it would be my favorite 4 banger. Basically the only real negative is torque for me. 200 hp is fine enough.
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Old 07-04-2015, 09:53 PM   #179
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NOHOME has an interesting style, starting a heated debate by stating a negative opinion about one or certain aspects of this vehicle.
I agree with him that I wish there weren't certain tradeoffs with this design. The main one being the relative difficulty accessing the spark plugs.
However I own 2 cars with this engine and I like a lot of things about it. In my WRX it has gobs of torque really low down. But is isn't a screamer high up.
In the FR-S it has less torque lower but you can rev it up high like my Integras did. I like that it is a high compression engine (not sure why, LOL). I like the lowered centre of gravity. I am sure it helps quite a bit in the WRX but Ive never driven something fairly similar like an EVOLUTION to compare and I am thinking they counter this with stiffer suspension. I also like the fact that partly due to the COG the FR-S has virtually zero roll with stock, reasonably compliant suspension.
Now, with the HKS blower installed, the car maintains the same character, not a V8 Mustang down low and once going rushes to the redline with far more urgency. But due to gearing and other factors its only much faster from maybe 40 km/h up.
I like the unique look of the engine, but is not as pretty if you remove the FA20 plastic cover. Thats one cheap looking intake manifold but I'm sure it does the trick and they really needed to control the BOM (bill of manufacturing). Yeah I wish the car was as solid as a 70's era Mercedes but lets be realistic. Its a nice car for the money as a sports car which is really a unicorn under a certain price point nowadays. If you wish to put a few more bucks into it for sure it is a much better car. If you need to put in too much extra just buy a stock Porsche, it will hold its resale far better. It is what it is. Love it, hate it, anything but indifferent on this forum. BTW I am guessing the reason it isn't an FA25 is just the times. Fuel economy across the fleet matters AKA CAFE.
Thanks NOHOME for getting us talking.
Next up, he tells us why he hates chocolate and pizza but he ca't put his finger on why.
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Old 07-04-2015, 11:54 PM   #180
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I like F1 and back in the early '50's a company called BRM manufactured a 1.5L Supercharged v16. The super charger pumped 80+ psi into the engine. I believe to date this is still the most complex F1 engine ever built. Anyway to me this is the best sounding engine on the planet IMHO. Put on headphones for the best experience. Enjoy and prepare for an eargasm!!

Since we are talking boxer engines how about the double boxer BRM:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmtMRgJBwyg&ab_"]Lotus 43-BRM H16 start up - AMAZING - YouTube[/ame]
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Old 07-05-2015, 12:38 AM   #181
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This was quite the interesting read. Besides the Miata, I've never seen such venom when it comes to discussing power.
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Old 07-05-2015, 01:46 AM   #182
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This was quite the interesting read. Besides the Miata, I've never seen such venom when it comes to discussing power.
Nobody puts a boxer in a corner...

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