follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing

Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-12-2021, 08:19 PM   #1
blatantanomaly
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: 2016 BRZ Limited
Location: SWFL
Posts: 22
Thanks: 12
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Sebring murdered my brakes

Hi everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm hoping someone can help me out. I was recently at Sebring International Raceway for a High Performance Driving event and near the end of the event (5th of 5x 30 minute sessions with a minimum of 1 hour rest in between) I felt abruptly increased brake pedal effort, decreased braking performance, and noisier braking. My pedal was still firm and I was able to just stand on it harder to stop nearly as quickly, but something was obviously wrong. When I went to swap back to my street pads, I noticed that the track pads looked terrible. I believe they are glazed? This was my second track day on these pads and they were only used on the street to get to and from the event which was less than 100 miles each way. I did my best to bed the pads into the rotors with increasingly aggressive braking without stopping (and the cooling ducts blocked) the night before the event as I had previously and they felt great until they suddenly didn't. The only differences from the previous track event where I had no issues to this one were stickier tires (previously Michelin Pilot Sport 4S 215/45/17) and a master cylinder brace. The rear pads look perfectly fine.

My car specs are as follows:
2016 Subaru BRZ Limited w/ 46k miles
Engine is completely stock aside from a K&N drop-in filter
Stock weight
Stock wheels
Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R 215/45/17 tires all around, brand new
Stock calipers
Goodridge stainless steel braided lines all around
Motul RBF 600 fluid
Verus Engineering front brake cooling ducts "molded" into the front bumper
Front brake rotors: Centric 120.47021
Street pads: Ferodo DS2500 all around
Track pads: Ferodo DS1.11 all around
Stock springs and shocks
Whiteline WEK001 and WEK002 bushing kits
Whiteline BSK020 front and rear sway bar kit

I believe I've read on here that the stock brakes with good pads should be good enough to lock up most DOT tires but I've honestly never experienced anything close to that even with super cheap tires.

Is Sebring at 86° just too much for the stock setup?
Would a different pad hold up better?
Should I shove electric ducted fans into the cooling ducts? (LOL?)
Do I have to go to a big brake kit if I want to keep playing?

I have some data recorded through TrackAddict for the whole event. Please let me know if that or any other information would be helpful.

Thank youName:  20210410_220501.jpg
Views: 699
Size:  76.1 KBName:  20210410_220440.jpg
Views: 637
Size:  65.1 KBName:  20210409_135124.jpg
Views: 640
Size:  87.2 KBName:  20210410_213019.jpg
Views: 702
Size:  64.2 KBName:  20210410_213101.jpg
Views: 620
Size:  49.1 KBName:  20210410_212903.jpg
Views: 609
Size:  61.0 KBName:  20210410_212845.jpg
Views: 653
Size:  53.3 KBName:  20210406_155703.jpg
Views: 648
Size:  64.0 KB
blatantanomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2021, 08:49 PM   #2
strat61caster
-
 
strat61caster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS - STX
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,360
Thanks: 13,724
Thanked 9,470 Times in 4,993 Posts
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Not being able to activate ABS with ds2500 is a problem, something is wrong there, doesn't matter what tire. Hopefully just a thorough fluid flush.

Assuming there's no driving issues (long and soft on the brakes puts more heat into them then short and hard) step up the pads, it does sound like you glazed them, raybestos st43 is the go to srs bzns pad, lots of options out there. Ds1.11 is good but there are pads that handle heat better.

BBK would make sense if you need to stick with ds1.11 for some reason, but it only spreads the heat on a bigger pad, it doesn't change the energy you're dumping into the system and you may need a tougher pad anyway.

Video will help, data will only help if someone has comparable data.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23680
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
ineedyourdiddly
strat61caster is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to strat61caster For This Useful Post:
blatantanomaly (04-27-2021)
Old 04-12-2021, 10:43 PM   #3
blatantanomaly
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: 2016 BRZ Limited
Location: SWFL
Posts: 22
Thanks: 12
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
EAR RAPE WARNING!


Sorry, I caught too much of the interior in the frame so it washed out the video.

Edit: also, forgive the excessive leaning. Long day, heavy helmet haha.

I did not pedal dance all the nannies off since my brother was in the car with me.

For your other points: I'll try to find somewhere dusty I can completely stand on the brakes and see if I get any ABS. I drove old Civics forever and I probably just got used to threshold braking. I'll put 2 tires on a road line or something.

I'm not married to Ferodo at all; I just liked that they had the My vs. temperature data so readily available, honestly. I will probably try the Raybestos next time then.

I had forgotten about the thread you linked. I will read through it again with renewed interest.

Thank you!

Last edited by blatantanomaly; 04-12-2021 at 11:30 PM.
blatantanomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2021, 01:29 AM   #4
strat61caster
-
 
strat61caster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS - STX
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,360
Thanks: 13,724
Thanked 9,470 Times in 4,993 Posts
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Cheers, nothing stands out in the vid, time to try a new pad imho.

Real brake ducts will help, pipe the front bumper inlet to the disc, shouldn't break the bank.

Shouldn't need to find anywhere dusty at all, ABS is easy to activate on my 245 RE71R or BFG's with the ds2500 on clean line grippy concrete.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
ineedyourdiddly
strat61caster is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to strat61caster For This Useful Post:
blatantanomaly (04-27-2021)
Old 04-13-2021, 07:20 AM   #5
Bonburner
6/22/12-2/6/24
 
Bonburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 2013 Scion FR-S M/T Argento
Location: Orange County
Posts: 1,475
Thanks: 1,595
Thanked 481 Times in 284 Posts
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
I'm willing to bet you just got a bad batch of brake pads.
Contact Ferodo about the situation and they will probably send you replacement ones.
__________________
Bonburner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2021, 07:46 AM   #6
gatorac
Chin Track Event Manager
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Drives: 15 Series Blue
Location: Bradenton FL
Posts: 85
Thanks: 16
Thanked 61 Times in 33 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
You shouldn't have an issue with DS1.11 pads. However, if you were running with the nannies on, you will abuse your brakes more. The main tool the nannies use is individual wheel braking. The meat ballast in the passenger seat will use more brakes as well. Perhaps you are just becoming more experienced and using more of the car? Upgrade to the AP Racing Sprint kit. You will be glad you did. The pedal feel and consistent performance are incredible. I was one of the best mods I did to my car. I don't believe a simple brake pad change will get you satisfactory results. At least not at Sebring. Sebring is tough on brakes. And everything else on the car for that matter.
__________________
Jim Pomroy Chin Track Days Event Manager.
15 Series Blue in white
18 Golf R
09 Comp Yellow NC
20 Gladiator tow vehicle.
gatorac is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to gatorac For This Useful Post:
blatantanomaly (04-27-2021), Opie (04-20-2021)
Old 04-13-2021, 09:12 AM   #7
Racecomp Engineering
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2016 BRZ, 2012 Paris Di2 & 2018 STI
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 5,393
Thanks: 3,406
Thanked 7,233 Times in 2,957 Posts
Mentioned: 303 Post(s)
Tagged: 9 Thread(s)
Send a message via AIM to Racecomp Engineering
What do your rotors look like?

- Andrew
Racecomp Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Racecomp Engineering For This Useful Post:
blatantanomaly (04-27-2021)
Old 04-13-2021, 09:22 AM   #8
blatantanomaly
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: 2016 BRZ Limited
Location: SWFL
Posts: 22
Thanks: 12
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering View Post
What do your rotors look like?

- Andrew
LF, RF, LR, RRName:  20210413_091953.jpg
Views: 540
Size:  37.9 KBName:  20210413_092007.jpg
Views: 536
Size:  36.4 KBName:  20210413_092034.jpg
Views: 537
Size:  36.0 KBName:  20210413_092049.jpg
Views: 549
Size:  35.3 KB

Let me know if you'd like the wheels off

Oh! I also had caliper temp stickers on that dayAttachment 199325
blatantanomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2021, 09:25 AM   #9
blatantanomaly
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: 2016 BRZ Limited
Location: SWFL
Posts: 22
Thanks: 12
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster View Post
Real brake ducts will help, pipe the front bumper inlet to the disc, shouldn't break the bank.
This is the kit I use on track: https://www.ftspeed.com/part/fr-s-br...ling-kit-ducts
blatantanomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to blatantanomaly For This Useful Post:
strat61caster (04-13-2021)
Old 04-13-2021, 09:29 AM   #10
blatantanomaly
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: 2016 BRZ Limited
Location: SWFL
Posts: 22
Thanks: 12
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonburner View Post
I'm willing to bet you just got a bad batch of brake pads.
Contact Ferodo about the situation and they will probably send you replacement ones.
I tried Essex, who were the ones that i think sold me the pads but no response so far. I'll contact Ferodo directly. Thanks
blatantanomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2021, 09:38 AM   #11
blatantanomaly
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Drives: 2016 BRZ Limited
Location: SWFL
Posts: 22
Thanks: 12
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorac View Post
You shouldn't have an issue with DS1.11 pads. However, if you were running with the nannies on, you will abuse your brakes more. The main tool the nannies use is individual wheel braking. The meat ballast in the passenger seat will use more brakes as well. Perhaps you are just becoming more experienced and using more of the car? Upgrade to the AP Racing Sprint kit. You will be glad you did. The pedal feel and consistent performance are incredible. I was one of the best mods I did to my car. I don't believe a simple brake pad change will get you satisfactory results. At least not at Sebring. Sebring is tough on brakes. And everything else on the car for that matter.
Makes sense. I was definitely pushing myself and my car as hard as I could, as evidenced by a couple of off-road excursions. I'm sure the AP kit would solve my problems, but I want to make sure that I actually need them before dropping a few grand on it. Thank you for the input
blatantanomaly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2021, 10:55 AM   #12
CounterSpace Garage
 
CounterSpace Garage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Drives: Subaru BRZ / Toyota 86 Experts
Location: Santa Fe Springs, CA
Posts: 1,028
Thanks: 359
Thanked 914 Times in 399 Posts
Mentioned: 154 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Sebring is a pretty rough track that can murder brake setups quite easily. There are other pad compounds available outside of the Ferodo application that will function well for your application and don't need ducting to work.
CounterSpace Garage is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CounterSpace Garage For This Useful Post:
blatantanomaly (04-27-2021), Grady (04-13-2021)
Old 04-13-2021, 12:32 PM   #13
jflogerzi
Senior Member
 
jflogerzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 2013 Series 10 6MT FR-S
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 5,520
Thanks: 1,998
Thanked 2,004 Times in 1,452 Posts
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by blatantanomaly View Post
EAR RAPE WARNING!


Sorry, I caught too much of the interior in the frame so it washed out the video.

Edit: also, forgive the excessive leaning. Long day, heavy helmet haha.

I did not pedal dance all the nannies off since my brother was in the car with me.

For your other points: I'll try to find somewhere dusty I can completely stand on the brakes and see if I get any ABS. I drove old Civics forever and I probably just got used to threshold braking. I'll put 2 tires on a road line or something.

I'm not married to Ferodo at all; I just liked that they had the My vs. temperature data so readily available, honestly. I will probably try the Raybestos next time then.

I had forgotten about the thread you linked. I will read through it again with renewed interest.

Thank you!
Look at CSG pads to be honest.
__________________
2013 Series 10 FRS #553
RCE T2's, SPC LCAs -4/2.6 camber
JDL 4-2-1 EL, FP and OP, Tuned by Zach@CSG on e85
RR Wilwood Front/Rear Sport BBK, Motul 600 Fluid
ARC-8 17x9 SX2 GTs 245s/Koing 17x8 v730's 225's
jflogerzi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2021, 05:53 PM   #14
Grady
Senior Member
 
Grady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Drives: BRZ Yellow, 2019 Ranger, 2011 Evora
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,682
Thanks: 352
Thanked 1,473 Times in 770 Posts
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Yep you exceeded the ability of your pads. Good news is you did not exceed the ability of your brakes(No brake fade/no boiling). CSG will be able to get you a better pad. Make sure your fluid is changed often and good quality. With better pads you next weak link could be the brake temperature.
Grady is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Grady For This Useful Post:
blatantanomaly (04-27-2021)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
the father of murdered cars. i'm sorry soundman98 Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 10 04-26-2020 09:33 PM
Who wants to see Wilwood Brakes vs. AP Racing Brakes ( Sprint Kit ) FT-86 SpeedFactory Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 119 12-17-2017 05:53 PM
Sebring Pic gatorac Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting 1 04-28-2016 07:03 PM
Got to ride along in a GT3 Cup Car at Sebring smbstyle Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 1 06-07-2013 12:23 PM
FS: Murdered Out 1994 Caprice 383 Stroker husker741 Cars for Sale/Trade 0 04-15-2013 11:49 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.