Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[juliog]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

I thought Bobby Carradine was the Kill Bill actor who died of autoerotic asphyxiation.

That's his brother David..

[ayau]

Originally Posted by dradernh

I am dead certain that Porsche is Patrick Long - hopefully he'll respond!

According to this post http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...38#post1572338, he has over 40 years of experience. Patrick Long is 32 years old. Can't be him.

[tahdizzle]

Some say he can swim the english channel and has webbed buttocks. And he only knows 2 facts about ducks, and both are wrong.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by ayau

According to this post http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...38#post1572338, he has over 40 years of experience. Patrick Long is 32 years old. Can't be him.

I'm back to Walter Rohrl then.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'm want to see @Porsche's feedback on my driving.

Not the cleanest lap... I think there's a few seconds of improvement available.

First, you're hustling right along there. I've mentioned before that you're a good driver, Mike, and quick, too; I've watched some of your videos before. Even without seeing others' times, I'd predict that you'll be up towards the top of the time charts if not heading them for equally prepared cars.

I like the way you're balancing the car in long slides on the limit with minor corrections at the wheel, dancing it through those long, fast curves. A track like that rewards your skill. That track is not Mickey Mouse. A driver could frighten himself badly on that track, not to mention wrap it all up into a ball at those speeds.

Watching you tells me that you're blessed with a sensitive backside. Most are not, at least not to that degree. I see natural talent in you that is "above average."

I could see you possibly having some problems when instructing: You may forget that others just cannot "feel" what you can; their physical limitations won't allow them to approach your performance level regardless of instruction or seat time. It's not a shortcoming in them. They're just not blessed as you are with the same degree of natural talent. They will NEVER be able to do what you can do. If you are not already well aware of this, perhaps you might wish to give it some thought.

See 0:50 for clipping a tight apex. That's using the entire road and describing the longest radius, which will save time. That's good. There are some places where you're leaving a bit on the table, though, not using the entire road.

I realize that at corner exit, maybe prudence dictates a healthy safety margin. Getting off into the dirt at those speeds can be a problem.

It's hard to discern how much space there really is out to your left side on some of those shots; the wide-angle lens exaggerates some things, so maybe what looks like 3+ feet may actually be much less. I cannot tell. But if you DO have, say three or more feet left at your track out point, that IS speed being left on the table.

It's your car and your life, and I don't know how much jeopardy you're comfortable with here. Greater speed will use up more of the road and take you out closer to the edge. How close to the edge are you comfortable with?

I like the way you just twirl the steering wheel. Relaxed and competent, not leaning on it, not muscling it. I'm thinking your body is well secured, possibly in a racing bucket with a harness? You're not bracing yourself with the steering wheel. Very important, and others would do well to watch you. You keep your torso upright as well, only inclining your head into the corners. Also good, in my view. Guys who lean their upper bodies well to the side, are in trouble should they suddenly need to rapidly apply a handful of opposite lock. They're not going to be able to REACH the other side of the steering wheel when leaned over so far to one side.

You mention that you're hoping for a "few seconds" improvement. You appear to be going darn quick; at your stage, 2+ seconds can be hard to come by just by driving alone, rather than a quicker car.

You're the one at the wheel, though, where I'm just watching a video, which is a poor substitute at best. I'm just making educated guesses. You drivers know better than I do whether my guesses are reasonable.

At 0:26, you appear to be wide of your apex. I cannot discern where your camera is placed, but it looks like you're wide here. All other things being equal, using the entire road to describe the widest possible arc will be faster as a rule. Some things may call for modifying that, like the pavement breaking up, perhaps, or a dip or bump that so unsettles the suspension that it's best driven around, etc. These are things we cannot see or feel on our computer monitors as we try to follow along with you on your lap.

0:32: I noted that you turn in before the cone on the left. I'm guessing that's "supposed" to be the conventional turn-in marker according to whoever set up the Training Cones. Your line looked okay to me. Heading into long turns like that, I like your line. Your line allows you to load your suspension more gently and progressively, rather than more abruptly were you to turn in later with a sharper steering input. I think this is especially important in high speed bends.

0:45: Again, it appears there is a good bit of pavement left to use out to the left, so maybe you could get to the power a wee bit sooner exiting that corner? Maybe use up another foot or so while still leaving some margin? Still, you're much closer to the edge here than on the long right-hander leading onto the front straight.

1:08: That big slide (good catch) cost you a bit of time; that's a bit too much sideways, and you're scrubbing off speed unavoidably.

Alan Jones' dad told him early in his career that tires were made to go in a straight line, and anytime you're dragging them sideways, you're scrubbing off speed and slowing down. (Alan was the 1980 World Drivers' Champion from Australia).

The question is always just how much can one slide the tires without losing time? One cannot be quick WITHOUT some sliding, just how much is the question? I'm thinking the quickest drivers are better at finding that balance point between too little and too much sliding, better than the slower guys.

Mark Donohue put tape on his steering wheel at 12 o'clock. You might want to do that. Try to keep the sliding within the "boundaries" of 12 o'clock on your wheel. That is, on that left hander where you dialed in a lot of opposite lock, you'd want to strive to never slide more than will require more opposite lock than bringing that tape back to the top, to 12 o'clock, whereas you had that tape over towards 2 o'clock on that left hander. Just a thought. Mark liked to look at that tape and see that it was always unwinding back towards 12 o'clock after the apex. Seems like a good idea.

We're looking at the finer points here, the small things since you're already quick.

This is all taking place up at the sharp end of the field. The mid-pack drivers may not be concerned so much with these subtleties.

My thought here is that in these cars, which are "momentum cars" (like Miatas), you want to minimize that kind of sliding because it takes so long to regain the speed that's scrubbed off even if it's only a little. My thought is that whatever your time was for this lap, you'd have definitely been quicker without that big slide despite how brief it was.

I wish I could HEAR your run better. At trackside, I tell my wife to LISTEN as much as watch, because while we cannot SEE the driver's feet on the pedals, we can HEAR what he's doing with the throttle and exactly WHERE. The throttle is the only control on the car that actually makes it go fast. I suggest to newcomers to listen carefully. The audible cues when watching trackside can be revealing.

1:40: It sure looks like you've left a lot of room at your track out point at that long right leading onto the front straight. Even if you're flat out towards your track out point, I'd want to unwind the steering a bit more to create a wider radius exit to minimize the friction generated by the tires. Keep those tires going straight as much as possible to minimize the scrubbing, especially in an under-powered "momentum car." We're looking for tenths of seconds, right? A tenth here, a tenth there, and it adds up.

1:50: You don't appear to be flirting with the limits of adhesion in this long turn quite so much as in similar turns on the track. You're not making a series of constant mini-corrections as at other points where you look to be dancing closer to the limit. Maybe this corner is a lot faster, and you're leaving a bit more margin? Anyway, this suggests to me that you could get through here quicker. Not everyone has that seat-of-the-pants feel, that talent, but you seem to based on what I'm seeing elsewhere on track.

I'll bet you can get through that last turn quicker.

But if you do lose it there ... that might be a big off.

How willing are you to risk getting bent?

You're just doing this for FUN, right?

You may find some time by working on getting your foot flat to the floor earlier in that last turn so as to carry even more speed out onto the front straight. I cannot discern how much leeway you have. You're going fast.

I'll bet that long right hander is hard on the left front tire.

Again, Mike, these are merely educated guesses, I'm not there after all, and I may be well off the mark trying to judge things on a computer monitor.

I doubt I've revealed anything that you're unaware of here. It's clear to me that you're at a stage where you know what you're doing.

[tahdizzle]

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by troek

i had just come off this video below( there was an evo 10 about 2 car lengths behind me), so i was bit gun shy maybe,

Good save.

Heh.

This video also shows me I'm right; you can get around there quicker in that car. I think.

Again, just a guess, because I'm here at my computer, and I can't know much from this vantage point...

You charged into this left a wee bit too hard, had one of those "Uh oh!" moments, turned in a bit late, missed your apex, slid wide, and (maybe most important) you just rolled into the corner and past the apex never getting back to the power until you "fell out" the other side of the corner.

Fortunately, still going in the right general direction.

You're tail took off, in good measure ... because you failed to get back to the power and transfer weight onto those rear tires immediately after turning in. Had you done so, my thought is that you'd have made it through just fine. This, despite your "concern" that you were already going too fast(!) for your comfort.

I'm thinking that you can do that again and make it through just fine at that speed. Just do it RIGHT. Turn in at the proper point, clip your proper apex, but most important, get back onto the power well before your apex and keep that foot down. Don't lift. Plant that rear. I'm thinking that you're looking at a good example here of "Trailing Throttle Oversteer" in your video.

Sometimes that's how one learns. One charges in accidentally faster than intended, yet without spinning or crashing. Reflecting upon the experience, one realizes that it is quite possible to get through that corner at that speed every time on purpose.

Once Jackie Stewart (in his younger days) went flying though an esses on track and made a mess of it, missed a shift or something, I don't recall. He related the incident to his friend Jimmy Clark who asked him whether he'd crashed, and Jackie said "No."

"Then you weren't going as fast as you could," Clark said. Clark's point here was that had Stewart been at the real limit, that mistake would have caused him to crash.

I'm thinking that your tail did not slide out because you were going too fast for that corner, it slid out because your car was unbalanced. I'm thinking that you can readily negotiate that corner at that increased speed.

If you were truly carrying too much speed into that corner ... you'd have flown off the outside helplessly. But you didn't, did you?

Gave yourself a fright, though, didn't you?

This sort of experience can readily throw the fear of God into a new driver. Remaining laps for the day may be at a "subdued pace." LOL!

Going to the power, getting on that throttle firmly is not easy to do ... when you're suddenly convinced you may be about to die! It's the LAST thing that beginners are apt to do. It's okay. We can all laugh about it now.

I also noticed that you left it in gear, so you were on the over-run with engine braking on your rear tires all the way through that corner. That's not good.

That made matters even worse. Mistake upon mistake. It all happens very fast. And it can hurt you.

If you think you're going too fast, and aren't up to applying power at all, and you feel your car starting to slide out of control, then de-clutch. A free rolling tire generates more traction and cornering force under such circumstances. Leaving it in gear and off the throttle exerts a braking force on the rear, which is the last thing you want at that moment. Very unstable.

It all worked out okay, but in the same or similar situation in the future, you might wish to de-clutch if you cannot bring yourself to get back on the power.

You don't have a lot of time to make up your mind.

If I'm off base with any of my assumptions, just ignore all this.

Now, this raises yet another issue: YOUR comfort level. Exceed that at your peril.

It's best to remain within YOUR limits. Never mind what someone else can do with your car. In time, with good instruction and a lot of seat time, you may come to feel more comfortable at higher speeds. Or not. Who cares?

I urge you NOT to hurry this development process. And remember that some people can do things that you and I can never do.

Your manhood is NOT at stake here. You're there to have FUN, right?

Arguably, one of the biggest problems of learning to drive fast, is surviving the learning experience. With today's sanitized circuits it's rare for anyone to be injured, must less killed. But still, it can happen to you.

Have fun, stay within your limits, and stay safe.

[Porsche]

And now I must sign off, for I think perhaps it is time to return this thread to its rightful owner, @CSG Mike, before things get entirely out of hand.
@orthojoe, my good friend and colleague, and currently my agent, and I both thank you all for your interest, but as Joe has already indicated we are bound to secrecy. It is out of our hands.

We can say no more.

I will always remain grateful to orthojoe for his good services.

Whether you think I'm "somebody," or nobody at all, matters not. Everyone might wish to note that the only real issue is the merit of anyone's observations. Are they reasonably accurate, useful, and constructively helpful as folks pursue their development as drivers? The source is of no consequence.

Again, thank you for your interest, and hopefully some of my observations will resonate with you.

Y'r H'mble Serv'nt,

-Porsche (who will catch a flight to Stuttgart/Zuffenhausen ... in his dreams. )

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Watching you tells me that you're blessed with a sensitive backside.

I could see you possibly having some problems when instructing: You may forget that others just cannot "feel" what you can; their physical limitations won't allow them to approach your performance level regardless of instruction or seat time.

I think this needs to be expanded on a little bit

Whenever I start to approach the limit at high speed (over 120kph), or what I feel is the limit, my whole body starts to give me this cold-sweat type feeling to basically “start being super super super careful with your inputs”

This is always at corner entry, and tends to go away once i realize there is grip

But sometimes it stays with me through the entire turn, making me shit bricks (like doing T2 at mosport at around 160kph)

I’d like to think that’s my body letting me know that I’m on the edge….. or is that just fear?

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Patrick Long has better things to do than post on a BRZ/FRS forum.

Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I still say that he's got red hair and if it's not Long, then we'd better find another red-headed Porsche factory driver to slot in there.

Originally Posted by ayau

According to this post http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1572338#post1572338, he has over 40 years of experience. Patrick Long is 32 years old. Can't be him.

I can help you with that: lots of spectacularly accomplished people on the internet offer up head-fakes to keep the noise down. Just imagine if Long came out and said "Hey, I'm Long!" - pandemonium, right?

Whatever, at least we get the benefit of the Porsche factory driver's experience, whoever he is. Ty Webb, maybe?

Originally Posted by 7thgear

doing T2 at mosport at around 160kph

If that doesn't produce fear, or anxiety, it will focus your mind at least.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Porsche

First, you're hustling right along there. I've mentioned before that you're a good driver, Mike, and quick, too...

Watching you tells me that you're blessed with a sensitive backside. Most are not, at least not to that degree. I see natural talent in you that is "above average."

I could see you possibly having some problems when instructing: You may forget that others just cannot "feel" what you can...

While I'm yet to be able to see all those things, that was my assessment of Mike's driving as well after riding with him on my second track day with this car. It was hard for me to pick anything up from the experience because the huge gap between what he's doing with the car and what I'm able to. Through corners I felt the rear end loosing grip.... but it didn't. hard to describe the sensation, nevermind replicating it with myself piloting. I'd suggest Mike to start out from 6/10th (if not slower) with people riding then ramp up SLOWLY in pace, so us mere mortals can actually pick something up besides "shit he is fast" from those ride alongs.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

I think this needs to be expanded on a little bit

Whenever I start to approach the limit at high speed (over 120kph), or what I feel is the limit, my whole body starts to give me this cold-sweat type feeling to basically “start being super super super careful with your inputs”

This is always at corner entry, and tends to go away once i realize there is grip

But sometimes it stays with me through the entire turn, making me shit bricks (like doing T2 at mosport at around 160kph)

I’d like to think that’s my body letting me know that I’m on the edge….. or is that just fear?

I would call it uncertainty. I've had the fortune of having access to drivers that are significantly faster than I am throughout the years, so sitting with them in my car, or a similarly prepared car, allowed me to "feel the limit" of grip. This also led to a "oh if he can do it then I should be able to too" mentality, which wasn't the best one to have, but it certainly hustled my driving along.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Porsche

First, you're hustling right along there. I've mentioned before that you're a good driver, Mike, and quick, too; I've watched some of your videos before. Even without seeing others' times, I'd predict that you'll be up towards the top of the time charts if not heading them for equally prepared cars.

I like the way you're balancing the car in long slides on the limit with minor corrections at the wheel, dancing it through those long, fast curves. A track like that rewards your skill. That track is not Mickey Mouse. A driver could frighten himself badly on that track, not to mention wrap it all up into a ball at those speeds.

Watching you tells me that you're blessed with a sensitive backside. Most are not, at least not to that degree. I see natural talent in you that is "above average."

I could see you possibly having some problems when instructing: You may forget that others just cannot "feel" what you can; their physical limitations won't allow them to approach your performance level regardless of instruction or seat time. It's not a shortcoming in them. They're just not blessed as you are with the same degree of natural talent. They will NEVER be able to do what you can do. If you are not already well aware of this, perhaps you might wish to give it some thought.

See 0:50 for clipping a tight apex. That's using the entire road and describing the longest radius, which will save time. That's good. There are some places where you're leaving a bit on the table, though, not using the entire road.

I realize that at corner exit, maybe prudence dictates a healthy safety margin. Getting off into the dirt at those speeds can be a problem.

It's hard to discern how much space there really is out to your left side on some of those shots; the wide-angle lens exaggerates some things, so maybe what looks like 3+ feet may actually be much less. I cannot tell. But if you DO have, say three or more feet left at your track out point, that IS speed being left on the table.

It's your car and your life, and I don't know how much jeopardy you're comfortable with here. Greater speed will use up more of the road and take you out closer to the edge. How close to the edge are you comfortable with?

I like the way you just twirl the steering wheel. Relaxed and competent, not leaning on it, not muscling it. I'm thinking your body is well secured, possibly in a racing bucket with a harness? You're not bracing yourself with the steering wheel. Very important, and others would do well to watch you. You keep your torso upright as well, only inclining your head into the corners. Also good, in my view. Guys who lean their upper bodies well to the side, are in trouble should they suddenly need to rapidly apply a handful of opposite lock. They're not going to be able to REACH the other side of the steering wheel when leaned over so far to one side.

You mention that you're hoping for a "few seconds" improvement. You appear to be going darn quick; at your stage, 2+ seconds can be hard to come by just by driving alone, rather than a quicker car.

You're the one at the wheel, though, where I'm just watching a video, which is a poor substitute at best. I'm just making educated guesses. You drivers know better than I do whether my guesses are reasonable.

At 0:26, you appear to be wide of your apex. I cannot discern where your camera is placed, but it looks like you're wide here. All other things being equal, using the entire road to describe the widest possible arc will be faster as a rule. Some things may call for modifying that, like the pavement breaking up, perhaps, or a dip or bump that so unsettles the suspension that it's best driven around, etc. These are things we cannot see or feel on our computer monitors as we try to follow along with you on your lap.

0:32: I noted that you turn in before the cone on the left. I'm guessing that's "supposed" to be the conventional turn-in marker according to whoever set up the Training Cones. Your line looked okay to me. Heading into long turns like that, I like your line. Your line allows you to load your suspension more gently and progressively, rather than more abruptly were you to turn in later with a sharper steering input. I think this is especially important in high speed bends.

0:45: Again, it appears there is a good bit of pavement left to use out to the left, so maybe you could get to the power a wee bit sooner exiting that corner? Maybe use up another foot or so while still leaving some margin? Still, you're much closer to the edge here than on the long right-hander leading onto the front straight.

1:08: That big slide (good catch) cost you a bit of time; that's a bit too much sideways, and you're scrubbing off speed unavoidably.

Alan Jones' dad told him early in his career that tires were made to go in a straight line, and anytime you're dragging them sideways, you're scrubbing off speed and slowing down. (Alan was the 1980 World Drivers' Champion from Australia).

The question is always just how much can one slide the tires without losing time? One cannot be quick WITHOUT some sliding, just how much is the question? I'm thinking the quickest drivers are better at finding that balance point between too little and too much sliding, better than the slower guys.

Mark Donohue put tape on his steering wheel at 12 o'clock. You might want to do that. Try to keep the sliding within the "boundaries" of 12 o'clock on your wheel. That is, on that left hander where you dialed in a lot of opposite lock, you'd want to strive to never slide more than will require more opposite lock than bringing that tape back to the top, to 12 o'clock, whereas you had that tape over towards 2 o'clock on that left hander. Just a thought. Mark liked to look at that tape and see that it was always unwinding back towards 12 o'clock after the apex. Seems like a good idea.

We're looking at the finer points here, the small things since you're already quick.

This is all taking place up at the sharp end of the field. The mid-pack drivers may not be concerned so much with these subtleties.

My thought here is that in these cars, which are "momentum cars" (like Miatas), you want to minimize that kind of sliding because it takes so long to regain the speed that's scrubbed off even if it's only a little. My thought is that whatever your time was for this lap, you'd have definitely been quicker without that big slide despite how brief it was.

I wish I could HEAR your run better. At trackside, I tell my wife to LISTEN as much as watch, because while we cannot SEE the driver's feet on the pedals, we can HEAR what he's doing with the throttle and exactly WHERE. The throttle is the only control on the car that actually makes it go fast. I suggest to newcomers to listen carefully. The audible cues when watching trackside can be revealing.

1:40: It sure looks like you've left a lot of room at your track out point at that long right leading onto the front straight. Even if you're flat out towards your track out point, I'd want to unwind the steering a bit more to create a wider radius exit to minimize the friction generated by the tires. Keep those tires going straight as much as possible to minimize the scrubbing, especially in an under-powered "momentum car." We're looking for tenths of seconds, right? A tenth here, a tenth there, and it adds up.

1:50: You don't appear to be flirting with the limits of adhesion in this long turn quite so much as in similar turns on the track. You're not making a series of constant mini-corrections as at other points where you look to be dancing closer to the limit. Maybe this corner is a lot faster, and you're leaving a bit more margin? Anyway, this suggests to me that you could get through here quicker. Not everyone has that seat-of-the-pants feel, that talent, but you seem to based on what I'm seeing elsewhere on track.

I'll bet you can get through that last turn quicker.

But if you do lose it there ... that might be a big off.

How willing are you to risk getting bent?

You're just doing this for FUN, right?

You may find some time by working on getting your foot flat to the floor earlier in that last turn so as to carry even more speed out onto the front straight. I cannot discern how much leeway you have. You're going fast.

I'll bet that long right hander is hard on the left front tire.

Again, Mike, these are merely educated guesses, I'm not there after all, and I may be well off the mark trying to judge things on a computer monitor.

I doubt I've revealed anything that you're unaware of here. It's clear to me that you're at a stage where you know what you're doing.

Educated guesses tend to be fairly accurate, especially with accompanied by data. The data from that lap would corroborate exactly what you say.

My thoughts on where to get faster:

0:26: I am indeed wide; I turned in late, and ended up going wider than I should have on exit. T1 is one of those odd turns where only the apex is banked, so if you "do it right", you don't end up using the whole track out, but doing it wrong leads to an off. As such, you can also infer that I'm leaving quite a large margin for error, as I missed the apex and still didn't go off.

0:32: I'm taking the line I take when I'd be going for a more aggressive time, but still brushed the brakes entering the turn. I *should* be entering the turn flat, and scrubbing the speed via entry, but I chickened out. Through the sweeper, I need to make the corrections faster, but smaller, to minimize slip angle and maximize power to the ground. Reducing distance is key here; I'm WOT through the corner. The exit of the corner has a slight crest, so I once again left a large margin here (That's 3 times already)

0:45 Yup, I'm WOT way later than I could be, but my "don't wreck" mentality tells me otherwise >.<

1:08 I actually overbraked for the corner. The line I intended to take was a power line; hug the corner, and straighten out over the large crest to stay WOT. The third correction was a wee bit large, resulting in a slide. With a momentum line, going wide and pinching the crest, the car should be able to hold another ~8-9mph, which carries all the way through the entry of T9

1:30-40 I overbraked, again, and went WOT really early. The entry into T9 is actually fastest not starting wide; starting all the way out forces you to pinch the beginning of the corner, but I enter T9 scrub all my speed via trail braking. T9 track-out is not quite as wide due to my lack of speed.


Overall, this was my 4th lap driving this car; I did 2 laps in a previous session. The car is aerodynamically neutral at about 90mph, with a bias toward understeer as the velocity increases; this is reflected by me not tracking out fully in T8 (giant right hand sweeper after the crest).

I need to overcome my fear of wrecking a car, and find a finer balance between speed and risk. That balance can only become finer by increasing my confidence at triple digit speeds.

The car was on 245 Z2 at the time, and were on their 17th heat cycle, IIRC. The tires had been overheated before, so they were breaking loose faster than I would have liked. Between not being a wuss, and fresh tires, I think a 1:28.xxx is possible with no changes to the car from the state it was in that day. I think a 1:27.xxx is possible with cool weather.


Your feedback is spot on; I had data ready for you if you had requested it.

TL;DR: 50% of the time loss is from Mike driving like a wuss cuz he doesn't want to wreck. 30% is from his inputs being too coarse (need quicker, finer inputs that don't upset the car's balance as much), 20% is from conditions.

I may have to visit a norcal track day to figure out who @Porsche is.


*edit* Car is completely stock inside. The stock FRS/BRZ seats are damn good. As you mentioned, proper seating position is important.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

While I'm yet to be able to see all those things, that was my assessment of Mike's driving as well after riding with him on my second track day with this car. It was hard for me to pick anything up from the experience because the huge gap between what he's doing with the car and what I'm able to. Through corners I felt the rear end loosing grip.... but it didn't. hard to describe the sensation, nevermind replicating it with myself piloting. I'd suggest Mike to start out from 6/10th (if not slower) with people riding then ramp up SLOWLY in pace, so us mere mortals can actually pick something up besides "shit he is fast" from those ride alongs.

I can demonstrate intentional loss of traction to show how it feels. I actually am "artificially emulating" inputs similar to a newer driver to induce a loose rear.

Remember, that when I was driving your car, we were having a full conversation, and that the "there's no grip... but it's still holding" sense of wonder does translate up. Maxrev (Evasive's driver) finds grip where I cannot. I've watched videos of myself chasing him, over and over, trying to figure out where he's getting the grip that's letting him pull away from me... in the rain on wider tires. I still haven't figured it out, and my only theory is that the resolution of his inputs is at least an order of magnitude finer than mine.