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Old 09-16-2020, 09:07 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by indio22 View Post
I read through some of the audio threads. I want to add a trunk subwoofer, but don't want a new head unit or take apart the dash at this time. In light of that, maybe someone can add insight to the below questions?:

1) I can tap into the audio signal wires coming to the stock rear amp, in order to provide a subwoofer with that same audio signal?
2) Is the above mentioned audio signal full spectrum at that point?
3) Is it better to ground the sub for the power return, or run a dedicated return line to the battery negative terminal?
4) How are people adding high-pass filtering to the door speakers after a sub install (since bass is no longer needed for the doors)?
what@FR-S2GT86 said. wanted to add one alternative to #4 though-- disconnect the door speakers. they are subwoofers, to the oem system, and adding a 'real' sub should be able to perform the same task more competently.

it's worth a shot- it wouldn't cost you anything additional!

in terms of #3, purists tend to want to overkill everything in an effort to reduce the reliance of outside materials (like relying on all of the metal body to get the ground signal back), but the cost of that is significantly more for marginal benefit. of importance here, voltage drop would then need to be calculated for both directions, with the ground wire needing to be further up-sized to compensate for the amplifier having to 'push' used power back to the battery. the common rule of thumb is to try to maintain a less than 12" ground wire length to the grounding point. personally, i try to keep under 3', but to each there own.
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Old 09-22-2020, 08:09 PM   #44
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I also need an advice about some books or maybe articles to read.
keep reading from where you left off at that quote. we gave him his options, yours will be no different given the same circumstances.
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Old 10-11-2020, 11:08 PM   #45
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@soundman98 what would you recommend as a bang-for-buck drop-in replacement for the 3.5" dash speakers? Or anyone else would like to chime in on that part.

My plan is to keep it simple:

1. Bypass the tweeters using this method.
2. Drop in better 3.5" coaxials.

Since the tweeter is bypassed (hence not placing any load) I will have to get 2ohm coaxials to match, otherwise I would get differing loudness outputs?

Last edited by Compelica; 10-12-2020 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 10-12-2020, 09:38 PM   #46
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@soundman98 what would you recommend as a bang-for-buck drop-in replacement for the 3.5" dash speakers? Or anyone else would like to chime in on that part.

My plan is to keep it simple:

1. Bypass the tweeters using this method.
2. Drop in better 3.5" coaxials.

Since the tweeter is bypassed (hence not placing any load) I will have to get 2ohm coaxials to match, otherwise I would get differing loudness outputs?
Why do you think you would need 2-ohm coaxials which more than likely would damage the front speaker outputs of your factory head unit?
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Old 10-12-2020, 09:53 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Compelica View Post
@soundman98 what would you recommend as a bang-for-buck drop-in replacement for the 3.5" dash speakers? Or anyone else would like to chime in on that part.

My plan is to keep it simple:

1. Bypass the tweeters using this method.
2. Drop in better 3.5" coaxials.

Since the tweeter is bypassed (hence not placing any load) I will have to get 2ohm coaxials to match, otherwise I would get differing loudness outputs?
no, there won't be much if any difference in volume because of the frequencies the speaker puts out.

another guy here installed these, and was quite happy with the sound quality
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...river--295-154

i use these, and am quite happy with them as well.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...8-ohm--295-349

i've been meaning to try these in the car, just haven't gotten to it yet:
https://www.parts-express.com/tecton...-ohm--297-2156

just note that they really need a 'bass blocker' in-line with the speaker to keep the bass away from it to play cleanly:
https://www.parts-express.com/Search...itesearch=true

should try to use a bass blocker for around 200-300hz
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Old 10-12-2020, 11:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86 View Post
Why do you think you would need 2-ohm coaxials which more than likely would damage the front speaker outputs of your factory head unit?
My understanding is that the HU amp sees a 2 ohm load based on the parallel wiring configuration on the tweeters and midbass. Both stock tweeters and midbass are at 4ohm, so if the tweeter is bypassed the circuit basically becomes a single sided speaker wired in series, hence that replacement speaker has to be 2ohm to match the impedence seen by the HU amp.
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Originally Posted by soundman98 View Post
no, there won't be much if any difference in volume because of the frequencies the speaker puts out.

another guy here installed these, and was quite happy with the sound quality
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...river--295-154

i use these, and am quite happy with them as well.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...8-ohm--295-349

i've been meaning to try these in the car, just haven't gotten to it yet:
https://www.parts-express.com/tecton...-ohm--297-2156

just note that they really need a 'bass blocker' in-line with the speaker to keep the bass away from it to play cleanly:
https://www.parts-express.com/Search...itesearch=true

should try to use a bass blocker for around 200-300hz
Thanks for the recommendations - will have a look at them.

Also I have some questions regarding '2 way' and '3 way' crossover modes on the Kenwood head units if you don't mind... I recently installed a DDX918WS and it has '2 way' set by default. Speaker setups are as per stock configuration.

In '2 way' mode, the HU sees outputs as fronts and rears, hence they are lumping the door and dash speakers as single output. I was thinking if I could use the '3-way' setting to further optimize the filters? From what I see, all the speakers already have a simple filter pass installed so there's no unlikely going to be any damage.

Still a beginner at this but I'm trying to understand what I can use at my disposal to tune it to my liking. Low-end is enough for me but I would like to improve the midrange based on what I have for now... and then look at drop-in recommendations once I've gotten my best out of it.
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Old 10-13-2020, 12:50 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Compelica View Post
My understanding is that the HU amp sees a 2 ohm load based on the parallel wiring configuration on the tweeters and midbass. Both stock tweeters and midbass are at 4ohm, so if the tweeter is bypassed the circuit basically becomes a single sided speaker wired in series, hence that replacement speaker has to be 2ohm to match the impedence seen by the HU amp.
but if you pull apart any random 2, 3, 4, or 5-way bookshelf/floorstanding speaker, the back will say something like "8 ohms nominal" and every driver will measure around 6-8 ohms.

the general rule of thumb is that it is always safe to go up in resistance, but it is not always safe to go lower in resistance. unless there is something from the mfg specifically stating that the amplifier is rated to work at the lower resistance rating.

i would run 16 ohm speakers if i could find a decent selection, but alas, 4, 6, and 8 ohm have become commonplace. generally, the higher the resistance, the more sensitive the speaker is going to be to more delicate sounds, which stands to reveal more detail in the music.


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Originally Posted by Compelica View Post
Also I have some questions regarding '2 way' and '3 way' crossover modes on the Kenwood head units if you don't mind... I recently installed a DDX918WS and it has '2 way' set by default. Speaker setups are as per stock configuration.

In '2 way' mode, the HU sees outputs as fronts and rears, hence they are lumping the door and dash speakers as single output. I was thinking if I could use the '3-way' setting to further optimize the filters? From what I see, all the speakers already have a simple filter pass installed so there's no unlikely going to be any damage.

Still a beginner at this but I'm trying to understand what I can use at my disposal to tune it to my liking. Low-end is enough for me but I would like to improve the midrange based on what I have for now... and then look at drop-in recommendations once I've gotten my best out of it.
your radio's feature is the same as my pioneer 80prs' 'network mode'. you unfortunately can't use this mode without a lot more wiring work. it's how this thread has gotten to 50 posts! if using this mode in the future is a serious consideration for you, i would not go with the previous speakers i recommended-- network mode is specifically for installations that comply with the very-vanilla 'car audio install', where one installs an off-the-shelf component set consisting of a small tweeter, and a midrange, with an additional powered subwoofer. this car just isn't compatible with that setup out of the box, and would require re-wiring to be made compatible.

while there are technically 8 speakers in the car, the radio only ever 'sees' 4 speakers. it see's 2 front speakers, and 2 rear speakers

the dash tweeters and mids are connected directly to the 'front' radio output, and the amplifier that works the door speakers gets it's audio signal from the 'front' output of the radio as well.

and then the back 2 speakers are connected directly to the 'rear' output of the radio.

if you were to set your radio to 3-way mode, it would cut all of the bass from the 'front' output--the door speakers would do nothing, and you'd hear mostly just the cymbals of a drumset out of the dash speakers, it would also attempt to send the midbass to the 'rear' output(which the rear speakers can only sort of handle), and would require an additional subwoofer to handle the lower frequencies after that.

it's possible to re-wire the factory sound system to use the door speakers as a subwoofer, but the easiest way to do that would be to change the factory amplifier for an aftermarket model, and that amount of work quickly cascades into my typical recommendation of gutting the factory system for a nice set of aftermarket amplifiers to run all the speakers. and once all the speakers are on aftermarket amplifiers, changing modes, settings, or speaker styles becomes a lot more freeing.
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Old 10-13-2020, 02:48 AM   #50
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My understanding is that the HU amp sees a 2 ohm load based on the parallel wiring configuration on the tweeters and midbass. Both stock tweeters and midbass are at 4ohm, so if the tweeter is bypassed the circuit basically becomes a single sided speaker wired in series, hence that replacement speaker has to be 2ohm to match the impedence seen by the HU amp.
That would be true if there were no passive filtering separating the frequencies to the tweeters and mid-range speakers underneath your dash grilles.

You have separates in the dash and although they are both 4-ohm drivers and indeed wired in parallel like you have discovered, the addition of crossovers in the circuit, i.e. the capacitors acting as a 6 db filter, make the sets act as a single 4-ohm speaker, and the head unit amp sees both as two 4-ohm loads. One right, one left.

Most factory head units, as well as almost all aftermarket units are not designed to run at 2-ohm loads and will get hot and eventually start distorting and cutting out as the volume is increased.

Coaxial speakers will also normally have capacitors mounted on the tweeters doing the exact same thing as what the capacitors in the separates are doing. And if you were to read the individual resistances of each driver of the coaxial speaker with an ohm meter, you would find that the readings are also approximately equal to each other, presenting a single-speaker load to the head unit approximately equal to the ohm-reading that you read of both the tweeter and mid-range drivers. It would not be half of what you read.

So what you basically will be doing is removing the factory tweeter from its spot next to the mid-range in the dash and adding another tweeter directly on top of a new mid-range driver that you are installing as a new set of coaxials.

Does this explain it a bit better for you?

P.S. I've never seen a set of two-ohm aftermarket coaxials. Not saying that they don't exist, I just haven't ever seen any.
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Old 10-13-2020, 03:15 AM   #51
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Four-way, time-aligned, fully-active, non-passive systems are great if you can choose the right components to make it all work. Mine is still in under construction, but already sounds awesome. I ended up replacing the front six speakers and eliminated the two rear speakers and added a subwoofer, but I think these factory speakers would sound better by eliminating the passive crossovers and amplifying all of them after some digital signal processing. Audio Control and Mosconi sell some really good equipment that can easily achieve this.

I sure wish Pioneer still made that ultra-top-of-the-line 4-way active DSP head unit. Perhaps someday they'll make another......
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Old 10-13-2020, 04:19 AM   #52
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but if you pull apart any random 2, 3, 4, or 5-way bookshelf/floorstanding speaker, the back will say something like "8 ohms nominal" and every driver will measure around 6-8 ohms.

the general rule of thumb is that it is always safe to go up in resistance, but it is not always safe to go lower in resistance. unless there is something from the mfg specifically stating that the amplifier is rated to work at the lower resistance rating.

i would run 16 ohm speakers if i could find a decent selection, but alas, 4, 6, and 8 ohm have become commonplace. generally, the higher the resistance, the more sensitive the speaker is going to be to more delicate sounds, which stands to reveal more detail in the music.




your radio's feature is the same as my pioneer 80prs' 'network mode'. you unfortunately can't use this mode without a lot more wiring work. it's how this thread has gotten to 50 posts! if using this mode in the future is a serious consideration for you, i would not go with the previous speakers i recommended-- network mode is specifically for installations that comply with the very-vanilla 'car audio install', where one installs an off-the-shelf component set consisting of a small tweeter, and a midrange, with an additional powered subwoofer. this car just isn't compatible with that setup out of the box, and would require re-wiring to be made compatible.

while there are technically 8 speakers in the car, the radio only ever 'sees' 4 speakers. it see's 2 front speakers, and 2 rear speakers

the dash tweeters and mids are connected directly to the 'front' radio output, and the amplifier that works the door speakers gets it's audio signal from the 'front' output of the radio as well.

and then the back 2 speakers are connected directly to the 'rear' output of the radio.

if you were to set your radio to 3-way mode, it would cut all of the bass from the 'front' output--the door speakers would do nothing, and you'd hear mostly just the cymbals of a drumset out of the dash speakers, it would also attempt to send the midbass to the 'rear' output(which the rear speakers can only sort of handle), and would require an additional subwoofer to handle the lower frequencies after that.

it's possible to re-wire the factory sound system to use the door speakers as a subwoofer, but the easiest way to do that would be to change the factory amplifier for an aftermarket model, and that amount of work quickly cascades into my typical recommendation of gutting the factory system for a nice set of aftermarket amplifiers to run all the speakers. and once all the speakers are on aftermarket amplifiers, changing modes, settings, or speaker styles becomes a lot more freeing.
I read your entire post, realizing I omitted a detail - I have a powered 8" sub running off one of the RCA outputs of the DDX918WS. Also my mods in the future will be to enhance the stock setup as best as I can, with speaker drop ins.

I do get what you're saying now. I'm just confused on which 'mode' I should be sticking to because neither of them seems to fit into our car's profile. The 2 way mode assumes there is a midrange and tweeter connected to the HU fronts whereas the rears can be anything depending on the configuration - but that it will turned off / faded out as I have no want for the rears anyway. Also in 2 way - there is no bandpass filter configurable.

In 3 way, all the outputs are 'funneled' thru three filters - low, bandpass and high in the HU so I can configure them 'individually' using the filters. I'm aware the stock speakers / amp already do some sort of filtering but I can at least influence the frequency within the filtered ranges, and also change the slope and gain.

At the moment now, '3 way' seems to be the better option but thoughts on this?

Also on those Dayton PS95-8 speakers - those speakers looks like they're meant to be used indoors, unlike a car's interior where you would have a wide range of temperatures, and the sun beating down on them - will they hold up in those sort of environments?

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Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86 View Post
That would be true if there were no passive filtering separating the frequencies to the tweeters and mid-range speakers underneath your dash grilles.

You have separates in the dash and although they are both 4-ohm drivers and indeed wired in parallel like you have discovered, the addition of crossovers in the circuit, i.e. the capacitors acting as a 6 db filter, make the sets act as a single 4-ohm speaker, and the head unit amp sees both as two 4-ohm loads. One right, one left.

Most factory head units, as well as almost all aftermarket units are not designed to run at 2-ohm loads and will get hot and eventually start distorting and cutting out as the volume is increased.

Coaxial speakers will also normally have capacitors mounted on the tweeters doing the exact same thing as what the capacitors in the separates are doing. And if you were to read the individual resistances of each driver of the coaxial speaker with an ohm meter, you would find that the readings are also approximately equal to each other, presenting a single-speaker load to the head unit approximately equal to the ohm-reading that you read of both the tweeter and mid-range drivers. It would not be half of what you read.

So what you basically will be doing is removing the factory tweeter from its spot next to the mid-range in the dash and adding another tweeter directly on top of a new mid-range driver that you are installing as a new set of coaxials.

Does this explain it a bit better for you?

P.S. I've never seen a set of two-ohm aftermarket coaxials. Not saying that they don't exist, I just haven't ever seen any.
That makes a lot better sense now, much appreciated. I was making an assumption of the loads based on the diagrams in the below link, under Parallel Wiring:

https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-...ing-and-wiring

Also, I've had always looked at coaxials as a single speaker... but it makes sense that in actuality, they are two speakers mounted together - never looked at it that way till now.

Last edited by Compelica; 10-13-2020 at 04:48 AM.
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Old 10-13-2020, 11:03 PM   #53
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I read your entire post, realizing I omitted a detail - I have a powered 8" sub running off one of the RCA outputs of the DDX918WS. Also my mods in the future will be to enhance the stock setup as best as I can, with speaker drop ins.

I do get what you're saying now. I'm just confused on which 'mode' I should be sticking to because neither of them seems to fit into our car's profile. The 2 way mode assumes there is a midrange and tweeter connected to the HU fronts whereas the rears can be anything depending on the configuration - but that it will turned off / faded out as I have no want for the rears anyway. Also in 2 way - there is no bandpass filter configurable.

In 3 way, all the outputs are 'funneled' thru three filters - low, bandpass and high in the HU so I can configure them 'individually' using the filters. I'm aware the stock speakers / amp already do some sort of filtering but I can at least influence the frequency within the filtered ranges, and also change the slope and gain.

At the moment now, '3 way' seems to be the better option but thoughts on this?
if all the speakers were individually connected to the head unit, you'd be right. but they're not, which is why currently, '2-way' is the better setting.

the dash tweeter and mid each have their own passive crossovers, and the door speaker amplifier has it's own filter for the signals it needs.

considering that you do have a subwoofer, the original intent of the door speakers is somewhat useless, so it would be a good idea for a long-term goal to rewire the door speakers to the rear output of the radio-- that would allow you to use the 3-way mode the way it's designed.


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Originally Posted by Compelica View Post
Also on those Dayton PS95-8 speakers - those speakers looks like they're meant to be used indoors, unlike a car's interior where you would have a wide range of temperatures, and the sun beating down on them - will they hold up in those sort of environments?
they hold up just fine. the majority of speakers installed in most cars use a paper cone with a foam surround. these have a rubber surround, so they tend to last even longer than typical car speakers.
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Old 10-14-2020, 12:38 AM   #54
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if all the speakers were individually connected to the head unit, you'd be right. but they're not, which is why currently, '2-way' is the better setting.

the dash tweeter and mid each have their own passive crossovers, and the door speaker amplifier has it's own filter for the signals it needs.

considering that you do have a subwoofer, the original intent of the door speakers is somewhat useless, so it would be a good idea for a long-term goal to rewire the door speakers to the rear output of the radio-- that would allow you to use the 3-way mode the way it's designed.
I get it now. I wasn't aware that the high, bandpass and low filters are 'hardcoded' to the front, rear and sub outputs respectively. But I'm pretty sure my door speakers are playing what they should. Regardless this warrants another look - I'll do a test on the crossovers later.
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they hold up just fine. the majority of speakers installed in most cars use a paper cone with a foam surround. these have a rubber surround, so they tend to last even longer than typical car speakers.
Nice, I always thought car speakers had to be made 'more durable' or something to withstand the elements.

Getting stuff from where I'm from is difficult - the PS95-8s are at least twice the price here, but it's still considered cheap compared to other higher end stuff. You guys are fortunate
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Old 10-14-2020, 01:41 PM   #55
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[QUOTE=Compelica;3375622] I get it now. I wasn't aware that the high, bandpass and low filters are 'hardcoded' to the front, rear and sub outputs respectively. But I'm pretty sure my door speakers are playing what they should. Regardless this warrants another look - I'll do a test on the crossovers later./QUOTE]

It takes some pre-planning and proper equipment selection, but I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to have a four-way system with your head unit that you have purchased. Tweeters on the high RCA channel outputs, mid-range AND mid-bass on the mid RCA channel outputs, and subwoofer on the low RCA channel outputs. You could run new sets of wires to the tweeters and midrange drivers in the dash and then power each pair of OEM speakers and your subwoofer on 7 or 8 channels. Of course, this would mean installing more amplifiers to separate all of your speakers from each other, but as long as your amps have additional built-in band-pass crossovers it will work. You'll have more adjustment potential if you use your new head unit in 3-way networking mode with the addition of more crossovers to work with. But this is really getting into more expense than what it looks like you're wanting to do.

For example:
I researched this system and planned for the best system build I have ever designed. I decided that the rear 3" speakers will not be needed in this build so they have been disconnected at the head unit.

I have replaced the rest of the stock speakers with aftermarket Dayton drivers, no passive crossovers in this system at all.

What I did with my Pioneer head unit was to set it to 3-way network mode and then split the mid-range outputs at the head unit, running two sets of RCA cables for the mid-range and mid-bass, along with the high and low RCA cables to the trunk where all of my amplifiers are. So I have a total of four sets of RCA's running back to the trunk for signal inputs to three amplifiers. One four channel amp for the tweeters and mid-range dash speakers, one two-channel amp for the door speakers, and a mono-block amplifier for the subwoofer. That's 7 channels total.

First, I set the high channel high-pass crossover of the head unit to 5000 Hz, for the amplifier powering my tweeters.

Then set the mid channel band-pass crossovers of the head unit for 100 Hz high-pass and 5000 Hz low-pass to give me the frequency band for the amplifiers that I want the mid-range dash and mid-bass door speakers to play.

Then set the low channel low-pass crossover of the head unit to 100 Hz for the subwoofer amplifier.

From there, I further set the dash speaker amplifier's built-in high-pass crossover to about 400 Hz, and the door speaker amplifier's built-in low-pass crossover also at 400 Hz.

I set the subwoofer amplifier sub-sonic filter to about 20 Hz.

These are my initial settings, and time-alignment is a major benefit in this head unit also to be able to have every speaker arrive to my ears at the same time. But the drawback with splitting the mid channels from the deck was that I can't time-align the mid-range dash and mid-bass door speakers separate from each other.....HOWEVER, due to the fact that where I sit in the driver's seat, the door speakers and the mid-range dash speakers on the left and right side are almost equidistant to my respective ears, so there was no need to time-align them separately. It just by chance worked out that way.

So as you can see, it takes a lot of planning and proper gear selection if you really want to go all out on one of these systems. It's definitely not impossible, it just takes work. And personally, I think the OEM speakers are actually pretty decent in these cars. The electronics powering them, although sufficient for some, may not be for everyone else. But I have yet to see anyone leave all of the stock speakers in place and only upgrade the amplification and signalling. That would be of interest to me.

If you go here,
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141784

you can see the beginning of my build. I will soon be updating that thread with some recent pictures as I just got my sub enclosure roughly set in place last night.



[QUOTE=Compelica;3375622] Getting stuff from where I'm from is difficult - the PS95-8s are at least twice the price here, but it's still considered cheap compared to other higher end stuff. You guys are fortunate /QUOTE]

Strange how that is, since almost everything we get here in the States in regards to inexpensive mobile electronics and speakers is manufactured in your part of the world.

You'd think that a boat could easily stop in Malaysia on it's way here from China in order to make a drop off. But then again, I'm a technician not an economist.
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Old 10-14-2020, 10:14 PM   #56
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if a 3-way/4-way setup is definitely an area you want to go, i highly recommend a DSP. especially for you, @FR-S2GT86 with your 4-way setup.

i installed the dayton dsp-408 in my truck specifically for more advanced crossover control (needed a 400hz x-over on the high freq drivers, deck stopped at 200hz, or started at 1.2khz in network mode), and the featureset is highly adjustable. each of the 8 outputs can have it's own independent parametric eq, as well as time alignment and phasing options. it does exactly what i built a $1500+ carpc for a dozen years ago for under $200!

the minidsp 6x8 does a lot of the same thing at a slightly higher cost as well..
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