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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 01-07-2019, 01:25 PM   #29
EAGLE5
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If I were in the market for an ICE-powered FWD sports car, I'd hold out for a Type-R. The FR-S has the grins per dollar, RWD dynamic, yet still daily drivable and practical market. The Miata is even more tossable but totally impractical and, for anyone tall, uncomfortable. Plus it's loud as hell unless you get the hard top, and the sporty versions ride rough. Civic Si is a totally reasonable car to get, but it's a bit dull. 370Z and G37 are just fat cars, like the Genesis Coupe. Porches are not expensive to maintain if you get a good one without the fancy suspension. You have lots of options. I do know that, despite me barely driving it, I'm still keeping the FR-S. After driving other cars, it's so refreshing to be low, direct, and nimble.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:53 PM   #30
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If I were in the market for an ICE-powered FWD sports car, I'd hold out for a Type-R. The FR-S has the grins per dollar, RWD dynamic, yet still daily drivable and practical market. The Miata is even more tossable but totally impractical and, for anyone tall, uncomfortable. Plus it's loud as hell unless you get the hard top, and the sporty versions ride rough. Civic Si is a totally reasonable car to get, but it's a bit dull. 370Z and G37 are just fat cars, like the Genesis Coupe. Porches are not expensive to maintain if you get a good one without the fancy suspension. You have lots of options. I do know that, despite me barely driving it, I'm still keeping the FR-S. After driving other cars, it's so refreshing to be low, direct, and nimble.
Good description!


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Old 01-07-2019, 02:34 PM   #31
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Upgraded suspension, tires and one of these and you're all racecar.

https://driver61.com/product/omp-sup...teering-wheel/
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:49 PM   #32
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We're all victims of our own past experiences. I love air cooled Porsches. Way back when I used to own a 1992 911. The 964 series wasn't the most appreciated by Porschephiles, but I loved it. It's one of the cars I most regret selling. Should have kept it forever. Now pretty much all air cooled Porsches have become obscenely expensive 'collectors items' and are likely forever out of reach (at least for me).

A few years later, when I couldn't find another nice 911, and wanting a convertible back then and feeling flush with cash, I bought a 2006 Boxster S. Being old-school, I didn't like the fact that it didn't have an oil dipstick. It was solely an electronic oil level display. But I talked myself into thinking it's the future, it's a modern car, etc. etc.

About 6 months later, the electronic oil level display was showing that the oil level was increasing. I was perplexed, and concerned. But sure enough, over the course of a couple of weeks, the digital display showed the oil level increasing, first 1 qt, then 2 qts above full.

If the car had a plain old dipstick, I could have answered the question in seconds. Just pull it out and look at it, see the actual level, and any contamination. But on that car I couldn't. The only way I thought the oil level could be increasing was if some other fluid - gasoline or coolant - was getting into it. Neither possibility was good.

So, without a dipstick, the only solution was to take it to the Porsche dealer - who charged me $250 (in 2006) to drain the oil, measure it, and look at it to see if there was any contamination. There wasn't, and the problem turned out to be a faulty sensor. They replaced the sensor under warranty, but charged me $250 for the drain and refill.

Ever since then I've sworn I would never own another car without a dipstick (which rules out post-2005 water-cooled Porsches). I've looked into potential retrofits, but haven't found one. It seems like a small and peculiar thing, but, like I said, we're all victims of our own past experiences.

The styling of the Civic Si Coupe, eh, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think the side profile is fine, maybe not exactly attractive but at least interesting. The front and back, with those asteroid impact craters in the bumpers, not so much. But, the view from inside is good. The BRZ certainly has it all over the Civic Si in the styling department. Now if only the BRZ had 50 ft-lb more torque or 50 more hp, it would be a no-brainer...
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:53 PM   #33
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I dig Si's. I owned an EP3 Si, kept it mainly stock and beat the hell out of it with no issues. It kind of started my love for hot hatches. It was NA, high revving, lightweight and fun.....the new Si is not NA, not particularly high revving, fairly light (100-150 lb more than the BRZ) and pretty fun. But being FWD and a bit "softer", it doesn't provide the same experience. The BRZ is more analog, more driver-centric, simpler and is an actual sports car. The Si is not.


Make your decision and show us what you got!


If you haven't yet, go test drive a 17+ BRZ with Performance Package.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:59 PM   #34
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The BRZ is a terrific car, engaging, that rare feeling of 'rightness', kind of like a modern Triumph GT6 or Datsun 240Z, but with an unremarkable engine.


As an older guy myself (60) and having owned a TR6 and driven 240Z's,, you've hit the nail on the head here. The FRS is a fabulous simple little car just a bit down on power. I don't think you'd be disappointed driving one,,, I've put 56K on mine and enjoyed it all. BTW it's down now for a motor swap. LOL
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:11 PM   #35
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You've already got a practical car in the form of your wife's crosstrek. A Civic SI sounds kind of redundant, unless you go for an 8th or possibly 9th gen. Get a BRZ.

If the BRZ had 50 more HP, it'd be in a different price bracket and I'm not sure how many people would actually cough up the $$$ for it. Power is not cheap, light-weight is not cheap, having both is extremely not cheap. The S2000 had almost 250hp with light weight and that thing was pretty expensive.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:47 PM   #36
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You've already got a practical car in the form of your wife's crosstrek. A Civic SI sounds kind of redundant, unless you go for an 8th or possibly 9th gen. Get a BRZ.

If the BRZ had 50 more HP, it'd be in a different price bracket and I'm not sure how many people would actually cough up the $$$ for it. Power is not cheap, light-weight is not cheap, having both is extremely not cheap. The S2000 had almost 250hp with light weight and that thing was pretty expensive.
Right?

Light
Cheap
Powerful

Pick 2
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Old 01-07-2019, 05:42 PM   #37
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I just came out of a 2018 Civic Si Coupe and I would not recommend it if you are looking for a "sports" car experience. Yes, it does have more torque, especially in the mid-range, due to the turbo, but you also have turbo lag and rev hang. The BRZ feels quicker from 2-3K RPM. The steering feel and handling is very good in the Civic, but the rev hang is what really killed the driving experience for me, along with the super light clutch and plastic feeling shifter. The BRZ just feels more raw and your inputs require a little more effort (aside from the steering), if that makes any sense.

If you are looking for a "softer" vehicle that is more daily driver friendly, with excellent fuel economy, then the civic might be a better option. But if you are looking for that sports car experience, then the twins is the way to go.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:13 PM   #38
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Thank you so much again everyone! Your perspectives and experiences comparing the cars are helpful and greatly appreciated.

thill, I'm not considering the WRX, Focus RS, or GTI for the superficial and ridiculous reason that I don't like 4-doors. It's just my wife and I, have no need of a back seat, and I personally just like the look of a coupe better. I'm also reluctant to consider most 'German' cars because of less than satisfying personal past experiences with reliability of VW products.

The Cayman is beautiful and a fantastic drive. But I just can't bring myself to own a car where I can't see the engine (it's in a sealed compartment and the primary access is from underneath, unless you spend half an hour taking the interior panels apart for an inaccessible sneak peak at it). I also just can't abide having to go to the Porsche dealer and paying $400 for an oil change. I've also seen too many comments on forums about how owing a Porsche out of warranty can be financially very painful.

I did think about the Corvette. Used C7's can be had for a fair amount less than new cost. But, I'm skeptical of GM reliability (we're all victims of our own past experiences, and my ownership experiences with post-1980's GM products has been less than stellar). I'm open to used, but the older and more miles, the more reticent I become - I've seen some real disasters on the used car market.

The Alfa 4C, well, there's no question about reliability there - there probably isn't any - but the lack of a manual transmission keeps me away (I'm very old-skool, it has to be a stick).

DarkPira7e, I love the G37 coupe. I've owned 3 of them in the past, 2004, 2008, 2012. I still deeply regret selling my 2012 to get the Mustang GT. I've been looking for a clean, low-mileage one ever since (with a stick), but haven't found any on the market.

This weekend I test drove a car that wasn't previously on the list, but is now - the 2019 Honda Civic Si Coupe. Yes, FWD doesn't have the same 'feel' as RWD. But the performance and practicality of the car - not to mention the value - is hard to argue.

So now it's pretty much down to the BRZ vs the Civic Si, since the Miata (just couldn't put the top down unless I was alone) and the 370Z (terrible visibility and limited carrying capacity) are (mostly) off the list.
I can understand the coupe thing. The BRZ really is a fun little car you just have to decide if the lack of power will be an issue for you.

I know you own a Mustang but if you have not driven a Camaro SS 1LE you really should. The visibility sucks but I think you van adjust but the car is an absolute blast. I preferred it to my C7 Z51 on the track. The 6th gen feels smaller when you are driving it and it punches way above its price point.

C7's are actually very reliable as long as you dont buy the 8 speed auto which has had issues. There are also tons of low mileage used ones. I bought mine in Mass and it only had 2800 miles and basically the full warranty, but was 30% off MSRP. Extended warranties (GM) through an online GM dealer are also very cheap.

If you have not driven one give it a spin, but I thought the SS1LE was the better car.
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:42 PM   #39
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Quote:
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They replaced the sensor under warranty, but charged me $250 for the drain and refill.
...
The styling of the Civic Si Coupe, eh, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think the side profile is fine, maybe not exactly attractive but at least interesting. The front and back, with those asteroid impact craters in the bumpers, not so much. But, the view from inside is good. The BRZ certainly has it all over the Civic Si in the styling department. Now if only the BRZ had 50 ft-lb more torque or 50 more hp, it would be a no-brainer...
I'd have gone to Porsche corporate and said WTF. That's completely unacceptable behavior from a dealership.

The Civic is plain ugly, as is the Type-R, but at least the TR is fast as hell. Torque is awesome for daily driving, but when you want to have fun, there's a lot of joy out of wringing the shit out of a manual NA engine.

We have a Jaguar I-Pace. As an EV, it has mounds of torque. You can accelerate into any gap, no problem. However, it's much more fun to get to 80 in the FRS.
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Old 01-08-2019, 01:23 AM   #40
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The OP indicated that his wife does not like convertibles and so he wouldn’t drive much with the top down. The ND is light, but is the least “analog” of the Miatas... especially the poorly implemented electronic steering. The BRZ is lauded as having amongst the best electronic steering in the world and I don’t doubt it. The steering was so nearly perfect on my NC Miata that it was a big let down when I test drove the ND.
Yeah I've heard the steering feel on the ND is a bit let-down. Really strange because at that weight, I'd think you could forego power steering and just go with a manual rack like some of the original NA's.
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Old 01-08-2019, 11:45 AM   #41
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I vote BRZ if you have to buy brand new.

Dont get a Z, friend just bought one. Its horribly outdated with crap interior and electronics. Dealer support (in my area at least) is shady at best. (I could go into the fiasco my friend had with their lying cheating dealership but its a long story).

Miata is nice but so dang small.

If you are willing to buy used my vote is a Porsche Cayman S 09-12. It will handily be a better drivers experience than anything else.
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Old 01-08-2019, 12:29 PM   #42
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A few years later, when I couldn't find another nice 911, and wanting a convertible back then and feeling flush with cash, I bought a 2006 Boxster S. Being old-school, I didn't like the fact that it didn't have an oil dipstick. It was solely an electronic oil level display. But I talked myself into thinking it's the future, it's a modern car, etc. etc.

About 6 months later, the electronic oil level display was showing that the oil level was increasing. I was perplexed, and concerned. But sure enough, over the course of a couple of weeks, the digital display showed the oil level increasing, first 1 qt, then 2 qts above full.

If the car had a plain old dipstick, I could have answered the question in seconds. Just pull it out and look at it, see the actual level, and any contamination. But on that car I couldn't. The only way I thought the oil level could be increasing was if some other fluid - gasoline or coolant - was getting into it. Neither possibility was good.

So, without a dipstick, the only solution was to take it to the Porsche dealer - who charged me $250 (in 2006) to drain the oil, measure it, and look at it to see if there was any contamination. There wasn't, and the problem turned out to be a faulty sensor. They replaced the sensor under warranty, but charged me $250 for the drain and refill.

Ever since then I've sworn I would never own another car without a dipstick (which rules out post-2005 water-cooled Porsches). I've looked into potential retrofits, but haven't found one. It seems like a small and peculiar thing, but, like I said, we're all victims of our own past experiences.
That's a dealer issue, not a manufacturer issue. Not sure why you'd blacklist the predominant maker of fine sports cars over that. I also hate that the car doesn't have a dipstick, but with the engine location I'm not even sure how they'd manage one.

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Yeah I've heard the steering feel on the ND is a bit let-down. Really strange because at that weight, I'd think you could forego power steering and just go with a manual rack like some of the original NA's.
They without a doubt COULD sell it with a manual steering rack. But people are too soft these days, and that car is already in a small niche.
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