The Goal vs Porche 718 S turbo Boxer

[Bfranklyn86]

Originally Posted by Gforce

I have modified my BRZ to be the comfortable and capable road car it begged to be out if the box. It rides far better than any Cayman. Subaru now builds exactly my car, well except for MCA traction brackets and I chose a 20 mm front bar instead of stiffer frint springs.

With a Supercharger it can easily keep up with any base Cayman. Only the S is quicker. Handling is every bit as good as the Cayman. Best of all, it is genuine sleeper attracting no attention whatsoever. A genuine Walter Mitty car. I get tickets every couple of years in my other rides but never in my non descript BRZ economy car.

I think with a supercharger this car certainly can compete with old Cayman S's, and as you mentioned the standard caymans get easily beaten.

In my limited experience of meeting Cayman S's on track, I think it's been quite close (but I do supposedly non-competitive tack days). They are slightly quicker than me in the corners but I don't have any suspension/handling mods and run the stock wheels.....

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by Bfranklyn86

I think with a supercharger this car certainly can compete with old Cayman S's, and as you mentioned the standard caymans get easily beaten.

In my limited experience of meeting Cayman S's on track, I think it's been quite close (but I do supposedly non-competitive tack days). They are slightly quicker than me in the corners but I don't have any suspension/handling mods and run the stock wheels.....

Lets say you get the straight line speed of a cayman of any flavor - You'll never make it mid engine and by the time you modify the suspension and brakes to the level of the Cayman you could have just bought the cayman.

[Lynxis]

Getting a twin to outpace a new 718 Cayman S isn't terribly difficult but it's a sketchy proposition mostly because our cars aren't designed with the power levels you'd need in mind.

Although the Cayman S has 350hp, to outpace the PDK and mid engine layout, you'd be looking at needing 350+ at the wheels in our cars. You can make that power with a turbo, E85 and some fueling and exhaust mods to the tune of around $15k all said and done but you are going to have long term reliability issues with that power level. The axles are the first part to go and the transmission and engine will let go eventually too if you are making use of that power frequently. You can get DSS axles to deal with that problem but doing something about the engine and the transmission is going to be very expensive and will affect drivability. A basic built engine runs in the neighbourhood of $5000 and a straight cut gear set will run at least the same. Now you are at $25k over sticker price for the twins just to beat a 718 Cayman S in a straight line and not have the car fall apart on you.

So that is just to win in a straight line, now if you want to win around a track, you've gotta add suspension work and brakes into the mix so you are looking at another $6k total to get the job done. There are other odds and ends I haven't talked about such as oil cooling, venting the hood, wheels and tires and anything else I haven't thought of so budget another 5k for that.

So if we add this up, a 28k new car, 25k to add boost and engine work, 6k for suspension and brakes and another 5k for odds and ends and you've got a $64k car that has no factory warranty, drives like shit on the street and is only marginally faster than 718 Cayman S...

For that money, there are a lot of other cars I'd look at, like a C7 Z51.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Since I hold the opinion that a 2016 or older Porsche Cayman is the best sportscar ever made regardless of price I would not suggest the BRZ is or could be made to be better.

Up here the local Porsche dealer is a snot nose. VWAG Canada are a bunch of crooks (I have an Audi story I could tell but my settlement agreement with VWAG Canada precludes me detailing it) so, that was a big factor in my decision to forgo the Cayman I nearly put a deposit on and buy the BRZ for cash, no deposit.

I have modified my BRZ to be the comfortable and capable road car it begged to be out if the box. It rides far better than any Cayman. Subaru now builds exactly my car, well except for MCA traction brackets and I chose a 20 mm front bar instead of stiffer frint springs.

With a Supercharger it can easily keep up with any base Cayman. Only the S is quicker. Handling is every bit as good as the Cayman. Best of all, it is genuine sleeper attracting no attention whatsoever. A genuine Walter Mitty car. I get tickets every couple of years in my other rides but never in my non descript BRZ economy car.

Well, I have owned several boxsters and Caymans. Of all years, including a 981. One of my 987 was even turboed by TPC in Maryland.

I have now owned 4 BRZs, all in different states of power. My current project is running an EBSC on E85. Making what is likely 330 to 304whp, give or take.

I don't doubt that BRZs can be made as fast or faster than any MY Cayman. In fact I have had BRZs that were much faster in a straight line than any of my P-cars. But, my point has always been buy which care you want. Don't try and make a BRZ a Porsche. You can make it a better BRZ, but not a Cayman. Its a fools errand. Believe me, I truly know. Now, I love my BRZ. And I love modding. And I love the cheaper aspect of it. But no matter how good I make it, a Porsche it is not.

BRZ is more fun overall than just about any Porsche.

Porsche doesn't make the fastest car, but what they do suberbly well is give you a car that is low level (most of us) track ready for 30 min sessions. This same car is comfortable, reliable, looks good, and though it truly is a GT car.....sure does a hell of a race car impression when on the track.

The BRZ is a blank canvas that can become anything, show car, cruiser, street rod, AX, and track toy. But the car will never be as balanced as a Porsche for less money than a Porsche. So is Porsche better, depends on your purpose. If you want balance, no way. But if you want to make the car fit your purpose....yes it is. That's why I own a BRZ again, and currently no P-cars. Well, the wife has a Macan, but that doesn't count.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by Bfranklyn86

I think with a supercharger this car certainly can compete with old Cayman S's, and as you mentioned the standard caymans get easily beaten.

In my limited experience of meeting Cayman S's on track, I think it's been quite close (but I do supposedly non-competitive tack days). They are slightly quicker than me in the corners but I don't have any suspension/handling mods and run the stock wheels.....

Maybe, but most Porsche driver are well under the limit of their cars. Most BRZ owners are closer to its limits, cause it is ridiculously easy to find the limits of the BRZ.

But you put me in any of my earlier BRZs a few of them making close to 400whp, and proper suspensions. And, no way could I beat myself in my 981 Cayman S. And, I the 981 will go all day long not needing any more than some pads and brake fluid. Remember if you are overtaking another car...your taking the driver more than the car.....you put a competent driver in that car and the story could very well change. Now, am I having more fun in my BRZ, yep....the 981 was incredible....but I found it boring(don't take that out of context).....in fact the BRZ is a little too stable for me. This is why I track an S2000 primarily. Never a dull moment in that car. I learn more driving it so far than any other car I have owned. On the track I am never the fastest with the $100k+(Mclarens, GT3 RS,ETC) company of drivers I run with....but I bet I am becoming a better driver than any of their fancy toys will make them. Porsche included.

BRZ = more fun

Cayman = more balanced

I am a fanboy of both Subaru and Porsche, which means I am a fanboy of neither. Ones a brunette, ones a blonde. They are both hot and a lot of fun.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by r_rated

Its a different level. Any Porsche can go to the track out of the box. One day at the track with a BRZ is going to fry the brake pads, boil the fluid and warp the rotors - not to mention have other cooling issues. To address just the reliability would make the value proposition immediate. For the street - likely none of these are a bog deal.

I beg to differ on that point. A stock BRZ can lap all day long with upgraded pads and nothing else, under most conditions. (perhaps not at a desert track in the middle of summer ). My supercharged BRZ had no problem at VIR with just upgraded pads. Important to note that this was on stock tires - upgraded tires with higher grip potential place greater stress on braking hardware.

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Getting a twin to outpace a new 718 Cayman S isn't terribly difficult but it's a sketchy proposition mostly because our cars aren't designed with the power levels you'd need in mind.

Although the Cayman S has 350hp, to outpace the PDK and mid engine layout, you'd be looking at needing 350+ at the wheels in our cars. You can make that power with a turbo, E85 and some fueling and exhaust mods to the tune of around $15k all said and done but you are going to have long term reliability issues with that power level. The axles are the first part to go and the transmission and engine will let go eventually too if you are making use of that power frequently. You can get DSS axles to deal with that problem but doing something about the engine and the transmission is going to be very expensive and will affect drivability. A basic built engine runs in the neighbourhood of $5000 and a straight cut gear set will run at least the same. Now you are at $25k over sticker price for the twins just to beat a 718 Cayman S in a straight line and not have the car fall apart on you.

I've seen dyno sheets of stock 718 S's putting down 340 whp, so there's a strong chance that the 2.5 liter turbo is underrated, or that like some BMW engines, it is designed to produce 350 hp under the worst of conditions - which means it'll make more than 350 hp under optimal conditions.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I beg to differ on that point. A stock BRZ can lap all day long with upgraded pads and nothing else, under most conditions. (perhaps not at a desert track in the middle of summer ). My supercharged BRZ had no problem at VIR with just upgraded pads. Important to note that this was on stock tires - upgraded tires with higher grip potential place greater stress on braking hardware.



I've seen dyno sheets of stock 718 S's putting down 340 whp, so there's a strong chance that the 2.5 liter turbo is underrated, or that like some BMW engines, it is designed to produce 350 hp under the worst of conditions - which means it'll make more than 350 hp under optimal conditions.

For sure. I said 350+ but once you hit 350, you are far enough down the rabbit hole that going for 400 really isn't any different cost or difficulty wise.

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I beg to differ on that point. A stock BRZ can lap all day long with upgraded pads and nothing else, under most conditions. (perhaps not at a desert track in the middle of summer ). My supercharged BRZ had no problem at VIR with just upgraded pads. Important to note that this was on stock tires - upgraded tires with higher grip potential place greater stress on braking hardware.



I've seen dyno sheets of stock 718 S's putting down 340 whp, so there's a strong chance that the 2.5 liter turbo is underrated, or that like some BMW engines, it is designed to produce 350 hp under the worst of conditions - which means it'll make more than 350 hp under optimal conditions.

The Boxster/Cayman/ 911, etc can do it unapologetically without Caveats of any kind.

Porsches are not only all underrated and punch well above their weight but do to engine AND transmission placement will put down much more of the BHP to WHP. Porsche also designs for abuse and rates under worst conditions. My 911 2S does a 1/4 mile in 11.1 with minimal mods and is factory rated at "only" 400 hp. That's GTR time, ferrari and lambo time and it will also keep up with them on turns even though its waaaay less money. Pcar guys have the same comparisons with our more expensive competitors and [like your trump card being price] our ace in the hole is reliability and cost/ease of maintenance. Sooo... if you do get a Pcar - the conversations are the same with just different cars.


Proof that Porsche engineers the cars to take abuse like NO OTHER brand. NO other brand could hold up to similar abuse... not a GTR, no italian, no BMW. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5DRCTW-Q7o"]THe 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo | Road and Track - YouTube[/ame]

I am a self admitted Pcar Fanboy and don't mean to minimize the BRZ - which I have a fetish for. It's a brilliant little package that doesn't really have any rivals for its packaging. Very few people actually go to the track (including porsche people) so although we all vomit track specs and capability it doesn't really matter. I don't track my 911 but do take it to the mountains as often as I can. Or pick up milk, or go have a cigar. The BRZ makes errands and chores really fun.

[WolfpackS2k]

Oh no doubt the Porsche can take track duty more easily. Just gotta give the BRZ it's fair credit - the stock braking hardware is more than sufficient given the weight and power level.

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Oh no doubt the Porsche can take track duty more easily. Just gotta give the BRZ it's fair credit - the stock braking hardware is more than sufficient given the weight and power level.

The BRZ was never meant to be a track monster. It was built to be really fun and meet a price point. It does both of these exceedingly well. Porsche was designed to be track worthy out of the box and to be a fashion icon. It also does both but price point is not a variable. Any ideal build in Porsche world are going to cost you 50% of the base price in options.... that's over 30K in options on a Boxster and 40-50K on a 911. Clearly different demographics vs a BRZ that comes perfect in base form with a short option list that meets the cars objective from factory.

[WolfpackS2k]

True, though outside of Sport Chrono my Cayman S is a stripper. Only other option I wish I had were HID headlights.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

True, though outside of Sport Chrono my Cayman S is a stripper. Only other option I wish I had were HID headlights.

That's the best way to build a 987 car. Sport Chrono is a nice "must". Not near as needed on the 981, and I have no idea about that on the 718.

I found I preferred tracking (and I was faster) in the 981 with only the Sport mode, and not sport plus. With the 987s the Sport Plus was my preferred mode for sure.

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Oh no doubt the Porsche can take track duty more easily. Just gotta give the BRZ it's fair credit - the stock braking hardware is more than sufficient given the weight and power level.

The BRZ gets credit for being a fun street go cart. The tires are a clear sign. Not grippy or appropriate at all for track use but fun and perfect for the power/weight on the street.

Once you get into the "well, if I add xyz mods then" it's becomes just another silly internet bench race about who has more money to burn.

Who cares. You can get a used BRZ or a used Boxster for the same money although different years. Drive both - one will speak to you. If you care about brand then just get a Porsche.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by r_rated

Once you get into the "well, if I add xyz mods then" it's becomes just another silly internet bench race about who has more money to burn.

Who cares.

Blah, the fact that you can hop in a brand new 86, spend <$500 on brakes and go beat on it just replacing consumables for half the price across the board of a 2017 P-car is incredible. IMO that still makes it a 'track monster'.