Questions about shifting in a manual

[paulca]

Give over about the clutch wear. Lift the clutch to the bite point the revs will fall faster. Then feed in the power as the clutch comes up. Smooth, fast, lurch free hooning.

Besides the lurch and peep of the wheels is fun

[strat61caster]

@aristo I agree with what's been said, the gap between 1st gear and 2nd gear is generally pretty large in a lot of cars including ours, as mentioned above redline in first 7,400 equates to roughly 4,500 rpm in 2nd whereas 7,400 in 2nd comes out to about 5,300 in 3rd, so what feels like natural timing for 2nd the 3rd will be jerky and unsmooth 1st to 2nd, as you have experienced. Since gear ratios and engine speeds and wheel speeds are pretty much linear if we shift the conversation down to say 5,000 rpm or even 2,900 rpm the same principle will apply.

As for 2nd not being willing to slide in, I think part of that is the synchros resisting which gives you two options, wait a bit or double clutch, I've tried both successfully (and unsuccessfully) and prefer easing it in if I can, double clutch if there's resistance. Hell it happened to me this morning on my way to work, went to downshift into second and met a brick wall, tried double clutching to no avail and ended up coasting to my stop. The transmission certainly operates better when warm and I don't really have a solution for an unwilling transmision.

Sure you could spend money on a lighter flywheel to get a smooth 1-2 shift at speed, then you're going to have to compensate for the timing change for all your other gears as well, may not be a bad thing though if you plan on 'racecar' but it may make every day driving a bit awkward, imho you spend much more time going between 2-3-4 when trying to go fast so a sub-optimal 1-2 isn't the end of the world, but I haven't done any autocrossing yet so my opinion may change.

Edit: As paul mentions above, slipping the clutch is by no means the end of the world, it's there for a reason.

[n0thing]

Would changing the transmission fluid improve the syncro operation? I'm already using Redline MTL though.

[paulca]

Second gear when cold is a known issue. Different gearbox oil is reported to help. Dealers claim it's "a feature of the gearbox and to be expected".

I have it for about the first 5 minutes from cold in the mornings, usually not too bad, but I have had it refuse 2nd completely a few times, I just used another gear instead.

Sometimes taking the shifter back to neutral and back into 2nd helps.

The other approach is to make sure you have given the syncros their time for due diligence and just stuff it in. I wouldn't recommend this at 7k rpm though, 1.5k maybe.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by fika84

I put in an 11.8lb (our stock is ~23lb) Exedy flywheel and it definitely drops way faster than stock.. downside being if you're NOT trying to shift quick (normal daily driving), the RPM's drop to fast and you have a slight jerk letting out the clutch because the RPM's need to rise to match the tranny speed. This led me to shifting quicker on a normal day to day basis to keep shifts smooth.

Lightweight flywheel also helps with blipping the throttle for rev matching since you don't need to hit the gas pedal as hard to get the RPM's to jump.

I also never leisurely heel toe. I personally find it much much easier to heel toe when it's needed, IE - really hard braking coming into a corner at high RPM. I do find myself rev matching for downshifting if I'm trying not to use the engine to slow myself down.

Yeah, you do have to shift a lot faster, and upshifts get harder on a cold transmission (the synchros on a cold tranny often don't like being rushed). I don't think I'd put a lightweight flywheel on my DD. We've got one on our 993, but that's set up as a winding road toy. It's great when you're driving the car hard (shifts are really fast and blipping the throttle is so easy), but parking lots and hill starts are a pain in the ****. The clutch in that car is also quite heavy, which makes stop and go traffic a pain. Is the pedal effort with the Exedy clutch (I assume you change clutch with the flywheel) close to stock, or is it more like a racing clutch?

I'm kind of torn about it on the BRZ. It would be really nice to have a lighter flywheel for quick driving, so it's tempting.

[Ubersuber]

Originally Posted by maxeveland

Ive never understood this explanation as I too am starting out.

If something unexpected happens while you are neutral, can't you just blip the trottle and shift into the appropriate gear?

Like say I'm in 5th at 40mph and I see traffic stopped ahead of me. I put it in neutral and 10 seconds later I'm at 20mph and traffic is moving. Can't I just blip the throttle and go into 2nd?

Yes, you can.

Downshifting through the box as you come to a stop is as old fashioned as pumping the brakes.

In theory, every time you shift you might miss a shift so the argument that the one you won't miss is the one you need holds no water.

[aristo]

Another thought about the 'delay' between shifting 1st to 2nd under WOT conditions..

Would this delay be observable in an automatic transmission car with 'sport' mode on?

Would the system actually delay the throttle a little to let the RPMs drop after its floored from a stop when moving from '1st to 2nd gear'?

Because if I recall correctly, flooring an automatic from a stop in sport mode where they rev the engine to the max, it seemed like a fairly smooth transition

---

I tried waiting for RPMs to drop a litte today as I tested WOT shifting (1 - 2) and the transition was indeed much smoother and more or less seamless but in the back of my head it still 'feels like the time spent waiting for RPMs to drop seems wasted even though I know it is the proper way to do it now

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by n0thing

Would changing the transmission fluid improve the syncro operation? I'm already using Redline MTL though.

I switched from stock Toyota MG Gear Oil special II to Subaru Extra-S / rebadged Eneos Gear Oil 75W-90 and I can now engage first gear at times when I couldn't with the stock oil, every shift is fluid and no more grinding. At redline going into 2nd gear is also much easier and no longer stiff. I have the STI short shifter which should have made it slightly harder to engage 2nd gear than the stock shifter, but this is no longer the case.

[fika84]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Yeah, you do have to shift a lot faster, and upshifts get harder on a cold transmission (the synchros on a cold tranny often don't like being rushed). I don't think I'd put a lightweight flywheel on my DD. We've got one on our 993, but that's set up as a winding road toy. It's great when you're driving the car hard (shifts are really fast and blipping the throttle is so easy), but parking lots and hill starts are a pain in the ****. The clutch in that car is also quite heavy, which makes stop and go traffic a pain. Is the pedal effort with the Exedy clutch (I assume you change clutch with the flywheel) close to stock, or is it more like a racing clutch?

I'm kind of torn about it on the BRZ. It would be really nice to have a lighter flywheel for quick driving, so it's tempting.

Since I'm at Denver altitude I started doing things to try and get performance and response to as close to sea level as possible..

All I installed was the flywheel, it's mated right up to the stock clutch. It wasn't as bad to get used to as I thought it was going to be and to be honest the loss of rotational inertia didn't hinder the hill starts all that bad.

BUT I also removed the clutch helper spring which is tremendously helpful in feeling the engagement fully so that slipping the clutch on start is MUCH easier. I adjusted the engagement point so that it was closer to the floor and I have Redline MT-90 in which helps with the cold starts and also got rid of 95% of the lower RPM chatter. As you can imagine the chatter got a little bit worse when the AC kicks on since the engine doesn't have the rotational momentum that it once had.

All in all I don't mind it for DD and as you said, the days that I go to the track to have fun, I love it. The twins with the stock flywheel feel a bit laggy when trying to rev match with a 23lb flywheel.

[rixter145]

For me, I notice that is a lot smoother transition from 1 -> 2 when I give it a little gas before i fully disengage the clutch. And when I mean a little i mean like 1-2k rpm little. However I tend to shift at like 2.5-3k from 1 to second though. Still trying to figure it out

[n0thing]

Tried the 1st to 2nd shift again with WOT. Regardless of what RPM (5k to redline) I clutch in, the gate for 2nd gear is blocked and I cannot shift into it until the rev drops to about 4400. When I release the clutch, the needle drops to about 3800 and the car joints forward, probably because the wheels have lost so much speed already. I've seen people shifting smoothly from 1st to 2nd, 7400 to about 5500. Synchronizer problem? My 2nd to 3rd has a similar issue as well.

Vehicle has 3000km on the odometer and currently using Redline MTL. I hope it's the fluid I'm using, in which case I can just get it flushed. Please advise.

[Poodles]

Dunno why you guys with transmission issues aren't taking the car in... Mine shifts perfect with the factory fill and it's not even fully broken in yet.

[n0thing]

Just want to make sure that there's indeed something abnormal, which I'm pretty sure there is. I'll have to swap the fluid and adjust the pedals back to stock before bringing it in. Don't want to give them any reason to deny a claim.

[fika84]

Originally Posted by n0thing

Just want to make sure that there's indeed something abnormal, which I'm pretty sure there is. I'll have to swap the fluid and adjust the pedals back to stock before bringing it in. Don't want to give them any reason to deny a claim.

Did it shift better before adjusting the clutch pedal? Maybe you adjusted it to far and the clutch isn't fully disengaging? Does the car come out of gear easily? Or does it require a bit of gas to get it out of gear?

There's definitely something abnormal, it should shift like butter when you're hard on it.