follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Off-Topic Discussions > Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions

Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions Discuss all other cars and automotive news here.


View Poll Results: What name should Toyota use for the production Toyota FT-1?
Supra gets my vote! 367 74.59%
I don't know, but its time for a new name. 125 25.41%
Voters: 492. You may not vote on this poll

User Tag List

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-30-2017, 04:05 PM   #1793
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,883
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
I can not only read, I can also comprehend, and sometimes even recognize when b.s. is being flung my way! Yay me!

Here's hoping for a not-too-terribly-overweight Supra! You can always add ballast to yours if it comes in too light for your liking...
See above.
Irace86.2.0 is offline  
Old 08-30-2017, 04:08 PM   #1794
Slammillionaire
Senior Member
 
Slammillionaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Drives: 2013 Hot Lava FRS
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 518
Thanks: 183
Thanked 527 Times in 259 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
That Nissan engineer was trying to also say that friction is dependent on weight because of physics, and that downforce is used to achieve weight when mass is lacking in racing
This would make sense if centrifugal force wasn't a thing. Hoping FT-1 has an appropriate amount of downforce for it's hopefully low weight

Last edited by Slammillionaire; 08-30-2017 at 04:25 PM.
Slammillionaire is offline  
Old 08-30-2017, 04:12 PM   #1795
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,883
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Supra View Post
If I were you (and I am thankful I am not), I would stop while I am miles behind. We can read and we can comprehend.
Adding weight is not good unless it is because you are adding something else that increases speed or reduces lap time. Adding downforce is NOT the same as adding weight. Balance is good.
As I recall, the topic originally had something to do with the FT-1 concept and possible new Supra. In summary, there was an FT-1 concept and it appears there will be something that may be a new Supra.
See above. Also, talk was about the expected size considering the small stature of the current Z4.
Irace86.2.0 is offline  
Old 08-30-2017, 04:29 PM   #1796
krayzie
Drive From Home
 
krayzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Drives: BRZ STI Performance
Location: Filth City
Posts: 4,914
Thanks: 2,368
Thanked 3,111 Times in 2,007 Posts
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
I am really hoping Toyota gets it closer to 3200lbs. A man can dream, right?
I thought this new Supra is supposed to have some carbon fiber?

Can someone remind me why Toyota is partnering with Bimmer to make this again?
krayzie is offline  
Old 08-30-2017, 05:29 PM   #1797
strat61caster
-
 
strat61caster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS - STX
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,360
Thanks: 13,724
Thanked 9,470 Times in 4,993 Posts
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by krayzie View Post
I thought this new Supra is supposed to have some carbon fiber?

Can someone remind me why Toyota is partnering with Bimmer to make this again?
A. Toyota is incapable of building a fun car on it's own.
B. "technical partnership" = exchanging hybrid/electric/fuel cell tech = outsourcing manufacturing so they can continue to crank out maximum numbers of Camry Prius and Tundra.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles...k-together.asp
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
ineedyourdiddly
strat61caster is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to strat61caster For This Useful Post:
Cole (08-30-2017)
Old 08-30-2017, 05:39 PM   #1798
mazeroni
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Drives: 2013 Scion FR-S Series 10
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,116
Thanks: 600
Thanked 1,017 Times in 512 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
I am really hoping Toyota gets it closer to 3200lbs. A man can dream, right?
I sure hope so. Someone already compared the Supra prototype to the last Supra and they looked about the same size. (The last Supra was 3,500 + lbs)



If the 86 is indeed that close in size to the Supra, and the 86 weighs 2,700 in base form (without the use of exotic materials), then the Supra would really have to be poorly engineered to weigh more than 3,200.

Even with a more robust powertrain to deal with future track models, or a hybrid, or whatever, the base car with RWD and a turbo four should not be that much. If it is, then yea, that is messed up. Get some aluminum and high strength steel in there pronto!
mazeroni is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to mazeroni For This Useful Post:
funwheeldrive (08-30-2017)
Old 08-30-2017, 08:14 PM   #1799
abraxis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Drives: many
Location: here
Posts: 487
Thanks: 190
Thanked 279 Times in 152 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by krayzie View Post
I thought this new Supra is supposed to have some carbon fiber?

Can someone remind me why Toyota is partnering with Bimmer to make this again?
Originally it was said for leveraging BMW's relatively cheap carbon fiber tech from the i3 into the next Supra in exchange for other hybrid and diesel arrangements. Now I have no clue what is going on, and will be quite disappointed if the i3 has a carbon tub and the Supra doesn't. Even the Alfa 4C has a ridiculously complex tub respectively for what I'd presume is the same price range though different class of vehicle.

I presume the Supra and Z4 are still set to be built in Austria by Magna Steyr....?
abraxis is offline  
Old 08-31-2017, 07:58 AM   #1800
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,577
Thanks: 1,373
Thanked 3,883 Times in 2,027 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
That Nissan engineer was trying to also say that friction is dependent on weight because of physics, and that downforce is used to achieve weight when mass is lacking in racing like with F1, but of course this is dependent on speed.
It's not like the designers and engineers in F1 are trying to make up for not being heavy by adding downforce! Downforce and weight fundamentally do NOT do the same thing for performance. For accelerating, cornering, braking g's, weight is bad, downforce is good.

The case he brings up, 600kg formula car making 1200kg-f downforce at speed. Let's say the tires can produce lateral grip equal the vertical load on them (race tires do better than this, but makes no difference to this discussion), so the car has 1800kg-f of lateral grip available. That means it can corner at 1800kg/600kg = 3.0 g.

His FIA GT1 car weighs 1200kg and has 600kg downforce, same 1800kg-f total vertical load load on the tires, same 1800kg lateral grip available. This car can corner at 1800kg/1200kg = 1.5g.

Street car weighing 1800kg, with no downforce, on the same tires with the same load on them, same 1800kg lateral grip available, 1800kg grip/1800kg mass = 1.0g.

Same tires, same total load, same lateral grip, but *very* different cornering capabilities between the three...

It's actually going to be a bigger difference than the above calculations suggest, because the lightweight formula car is going to have MUCH more even load distribution between its four tires, while the GT1 car and especially the street car are going to be more heavily loading the outside tires and unloading the inside tires, which will reduce overall lateral grip due to nonlinear grip/load curve.

Quote:
The GTR n other heavy cars may be more forgiving than a light car. That's what he meant about having a reasonable, drivable, super car.
In my experience instructing students in their cars at the track, smaller and lighter-weight cars are generally easier to recover, while big heavy cars can be more of a handful and more difficult to recover when they get out of shape. Of course the GT-R and other big/heavy supercars have electronic controls that work very very well, which smaller/lighter/cheaper sports cars might not have. But all equal, IMO smaller and lighter-weight car should be more reasonable/driveable.

Quote:
I think you guys are interpreting things beyond what he is saying and what I am saying just to be rude.
I apologize if I was rude. I do fundamentally disagree with what he is *suggesting* in the linked article, the idea that 1800kg load on tires means the same or even something remotely similar for a 600kg formula car with a lot of downforce vs. a 1200kg GT1 car with some downforce vs. an 1800kg street car with no downforce. With the same tires, the grip levels may be comparable, but the performance difference is HUGE! Weight bad, downforce good.

Last edited by ZDan; 08-31-2017 at 08:46 AM.
ZDan is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 10:15 AM   #1801
Guff
Now w/ over 400 womprats!
 
Guff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: BRZ LZR
Location: Texas/Illinois
Posts: 4,785
Thanks: 10,452
Thanked 3,420 Times in 1,424 Posts
Mentioned: 301 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxis View Post
Originally it was said for leveraging BMW's relatively cheap carbon fiber tech from the i3 into the next Supra in exchange for other hybrid and diesel arrangements. Now I have no clue what is going on, and will be quite disappointed if the i3 has a carbon tub and the Supra doesn't. Even the Alfa 4C has a ridiculously complex tub respectively for what I'd presume is the same price range though different class of vehicle.

I presume the Supra and Z4 are still set to be built in Austria by Magna Steyr....?
I don't believe carbon tub is happening, but that's not to say there won't be plenty of carbon parts. The car is likely going to be a standard Unibody with mostly aluminum used.

And yes, Magna Steyr is manufacturing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazeroni View Post
I sure hope so. Someone already compared the Supra prototype to the last Supra and they looked about the same size. (The last Supra was 3,500 + lbs)



If the 86 is indeed that close in size to the Supra, and the 86 weighs 2,700 in base form (without the use of exotic materials), then the Supra would really have to be poorly engineered to weigh more than 3,200.

Even with a more robust powertrain to deal with future track models, or a hybrid, or whatever, the base car with RWD and a turbo four should not be that much. If it is, then yea, that is messed up. Get some aluminum and high strength steel in there pronto!
You have to remember, this is a GT car. It's gonna have electric seats, lots of sound deadening, a nice stereo, etc. The weight of the body in white might not be huge, but with the GT accoutrements, it'll be plenty heavier than an 86.

Also, unrelated, that overlay comparison makes the supra look much longer than it actually is. The 86 has the longer wheelbase between the two, Supra just has longer overhangs.
__________________
"Sweet Subaru, sweet Subaru, send your BRZ unto me, for the roads of the unworthy must be baptized in speed and glory."
- The Ancient BRZ Sacrament
by Zaku
Guff is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Guff For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (08-31-2017), new2subaru (08-31-2017), RRnold (08-31-2017), Tcoat (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 11:13 AM   #1802
Racecomp Engineering
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2016 BRZ, 2012 Paris Di2 & 2018 STI
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 5,393
Thanks: 3,406
Thanked 7,233 Times in 2,957 Posts
Mentioned: 303 Post(s)
Tagged: 9 Thread(s)
Send a message via AIM to Racecomp Engineering
This new Supra is going to make a very good-looking racecar and I can't wait to see it in World Challenge and GT racing.

- Andrew
Racecomp Engineering is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Racecomp Engineering For This Useful Post:
Guff (08-31-2017), RRnold (08-31-2017), Slammillionaire (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 12:09 PM   #1803
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post

You have to remember, this is a GT car.

Many seem to have forgotten, didn't know or don't understand what this implies.


It is not a sports car. It was never planned to be a sports car. It will not be easy to turn it into a sports car.


It should be spectacular for the purpose that it is being designed for though.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (08-31-2017), daiheadjai (09-01-2017), funwheeldrive (08-31-2017), Guff (08-31-2017), strat61caster (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 12:26 PM   #1804
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,883
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
I don't believe carbon tub is happening, but that's not to say there won't be plenty of carbon parts. The car is likely going to be a standard Unibody with mostly aluminum used.

And yes, Magna Steyr is manufacturing.



You have to remember, this is a GT car. It's gonna have electric seats, lots of sound deadening, a nice stereo, etc. The weight of the body in white might not be huge, but with the GT accoutrements, it'll be plenty heavier than an 86.

Also, unrelated, that overlay comparison makes the supra look much longer than it actually is. The 86 has the longer wheelbase between the two, Supra just has longer overhangs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
Many seem to have forgotten, didn't know or don't understand what this implies.


It is not a sports car. It was never planned to be a sports car. It will not be easy to turn it into a sports car.


It should be spectacular for the purpose that it is being designed for though.
Yes and yes. This was also my point. My thinking and statements before was that any GT car will be no 3200lb car sized like a z4 roadster packed with GT comforts n Supra worthy performance.
Irace86.2.0 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
Guff (08-31-2017)
Old 08-31-2017, 12:49 PM   #1805
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Yes and yes. This was also my point. My thinking and statements before was that any GT car will be no 3200lb car sized like a z4 roadster packed with GT comforts n Supra worthy performance.
I thought your point was that adding weight made a car "better" in all ways? That remains false. Yes the GT will weigh more but it will still be as light as they can possibly make it while still giving it what it needs to play with the big boys.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline  
Old 08-31-2017, 03:19 PM   #1806
Rampage
Senior Member/Old Fanboi
 
Rampage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: 2000 2ZZ-GE MR2 Spyder HT
Location: Back home in Ohio now
Posts: 2,446
Thanks: 1,931
Thanked 2,014 Times in 915 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering View Post
This new Supra is going to make a very good-looking racecar and I can't wait to see it in World Challenge and GT racing.

- Andrew
I hope you are right but I am not holding my breath. If it is not NASCAR or LeMans Toyota does not seem to be interested.
__________________
So many modders have more cents than sense!
Rampage is offline  
 
Closed Thread

Tags
bmwforsuckers, boring-zzzzzzzzzzzzz, brz, celica supra confirmed, frs, ft-1, hatch-y +1, morethanucanaffordpal, nomanualnogo, supra, toyota, twins, watstheretailon1ofthose

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Toyota FR-S : Official Name for the FT-86 Concept? Dark Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 155 08-04-2010 11:05 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.