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Old 10-08-2020, 12:54 PM   #1
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2017 86 comparison to 2019 CTR

CTR is ping pong boom faster.


To be continued when I have time...


Let's continue, I have some time now, and I don't believe there really has been a comparison of the two nor are there any CTR owners here??


The 86, most of you already know what it's like, we're all fan bois, and will stick behind it despite its faults. I have a great deal of driving with my 86 of the past (actually drove it every single day from when I owned it until I did not minus maybe like 1.5 days) in many different circumstances, daily, spirited, track, etc... I am no professional though by any means, so judge what I say in comparison to your own experiences as well.

The Civic Type R, a car marketed so heavily as a track behemoth people literally thought they were buying a track prepped daily street car. This is not the case. While my current driving experiences with the CTR aren't as numerous as with the 86, my ownership has now been over a year with a multitude of different driving conditions.

I'm going to split this up into categories to kind of narrow down the comparison a little easier; Daily, Spirited, Track*. I will mostly focus on the driving.


Daily:

Day to day, these cars don't really do anything all that much differently. I drive in immense amounts of traffic on some fairly busy roads and freeways in the Toronto area, or at least I did until the world shut down.

The 86 likes to dart in and out of traffic easy, it's fairly easy to maneuver through small areas and the vision is decent besides the right passenger side blindspot. Suspension is okay for younger people, I don't complain, but it definitely isn't compliant enough for some older folks I know and have received complaints. Power? Not necessary for daily driving, if someone says you needit, they cannot drive worth shit and should have their license revoked. Anyway blah blah, you guys know the 86.

The CTR in many many cases, I find it very similar to the 86 from a daily perspective besides a few things that scream in your face once you first get in.

The shifter, LOTS and I mean LOTS of car journalist will say the shifter is amazing, I say it's great, not amazing. The shifter on the 86 is better from a feeling point of view, but the CTR definitely tells you what it's doing very well, and has fairly nice throws.

A lot of CTR owners that do not know how to shift will claim there is a 2nd gear crunch or grind, the only time I have experienced anything like that was from poor shifting style, otherwise, those jack-offs just need to learn how to drive THIS car, instead of blaming the car itself as I believe it to be mostly user error (I am not denying the possibility of 2nd gear grind existing, I just don't humor the angry pitchfork mob that think they are Mario Andretti). The jist here, the shifter is really good, it will take time adjusting to it though.

For the suspension and overall ride quality potholes are the bane of my existence. To me it does not matter how soft or stiff (barring full racecars) your suspension is when it comes to these situations, it just sucks no matter what. For the mundane type of people comfort mode will be a dream for them, it's bouncy, steering is dumb light, and throttle mapping completely changes, it's no Accord/Camry, but it gets the job done.

Interior? I mean it's more upscale, it should be, it costs more. The head unit does a lot of things, but the simplicity of the head unit in the 86 was actually quite nice to have. Both aren't amazing, but who cares. Vision, forward vision in the CTR is worse than the 86, just a lot more going on and a bit narrower when looking forward. Lots of red trim, I like it, some may not, red seats are dope as hell. The seating position is good, the 86 is better. You can get down quite low and forward to a similar position in the 86, but this is where Honda has likely had to compromise; mind you my 86 was lowered.

Practicality of all the space acquired from the hatchback design and 2 extra doors is stupid. I went in knowing I wanted a car quite capable practically, but did not expect near small SUV levels of space. Obviously, the 86 can't compare, but as a legally single young adult, it doesn't need to be any bigger.. unless your a musician. This unfortunately for me, did not make the 86 100% future proof.

Now for actually driving day to day, it's a wash. If you drive like a sane human being you won't notice much difference besides the obvious huge power and torque difference. Neither car will be strained to the point of where you will really feel enough to dynamically separate them, especially when you live in grid layout cities. Cruising on the freeway, you have more stability in the CTR, and with the different drive modes you can play around with how twitchy the car is at speeds essentially. Is it better, I would definitely say it is a better cruising car at high speeds than the 86, mostly due to the extra weight it has though, otherwise they aren't too far off, but it is noticeable.

Exhaust, they are both quiet and both need upgrading, do yourself a favour. Here's what I came from and what I'm going to if anyone is curious:





This is a little long winded for daily explanation, and I could do a lot more, but it won't focus on driving that much, so feel free to ask, but I'm going to move on for now.


Spirited/Track*:

I'm going to clump these two together because I've never tracked or raced my CTR... winky face.

The CTR is quite a car when pushed, it is so much like an 86 when you actually start to push it it's interesting. What I mean is, when you push it, it comes alive. The 86 is very much like a stiff Corolla until you start beating on it how it wants you to, the CTR is similar in this stead, start flooring it, turning in hard, braking hard, lift off oversteer, etc, and suddenly you have a completely different car, it always always wants to do more.

Easily for me, the CTR is a 10/10ths car, when you give it just that little bit more it does unbelievable things when you keep in mind it's FWD and has gobs of hp/tq. I have been so surprised by how capable the car is, it very very easily exceeds my skill level and probably will for a long time, but with that in mind, I think it's also a very easy car to drive very fast/quickly.

This is where the 86 comes into play. It's the better car to learn off of, period. The 86 will make your work for being quick, it doesn't just give it to you where the CTR kind of can. The 86 will make you a better driver than the CTR in my honest opinion, until you start really getting competitive and then you can kinda just throw that out the window.

Both cars understeer, although I think the 86 way understeers more. This may mostly be in part to stock rubber (which lasts forever on the 86), but for me, the front end of the 86 had times of feeling quite light and/or floaty. The CTR has an incredibly heavy front end, like stupid heavy when you're on it. It really gives a good sense of what the tires are doing through the steering wheel, quite communicative, but in this, I think it's half a step behind the 86. The road feel is all there, the entire body communicates what it's doing, and the weight, everything just feels heavy, meaty if you must.

A lot of the time, and I may just be crazy, but I feel like I can visualize what is happening to the front end when the wheels communicate with me (you know when they do that cheesy nitrous graphic in Fast and Furious, like that), the 86 does all of this a little bit more, BUT misses out on the meaty weighty feel. This can be a pro or con however you take it.

A big difference between these two cars which I think is very important, is the speed at which they do things. There is no question about it, the CTR wants to go fast all the time, it needs to go fast, it wants to do fast things, it enjoys doing speed with the 70's hippies. It goads you on just like the R35 or any domestic high hp V8 RWD meat wagon, you just want to send it. Everything about the CTR is about being quick and fast around a road course at varying speeds. The 86 is not like this, the 86 even in the TRD trim just doesn't feel like this; I would wager the BRZ tS does though, but to a lesser degree as you don't have the 'Holy Grail of 4cyl Engines, Honda's K20C1' (it was a joke, have you seen that M139...).

From the shift feel to the corner entry and corner exit of the CTR, it has a very strange need and passion for wanting to throw or propel itself in the quickest possible way. This is a car most people buy because of what it's capable of, and most buyers won't posses any intention of even getting close to that. The 86 is kind of under a guise, it doesn't tell you it wants you to do that, it doesn't show you the easiest way around a track, you have to work for it, but when you do work for it, it's there, and it greets you promptly.

Overall, when in grip, they handle things similarly to a point, especially at low speeds surprisingly, but the faster and faster things become, you then begin to notice the seriousness of the CTR as opposed to the playfulness of the 86, which I wouldn't say is entirely down to tires, but is important of course. When outside of grip, everything changes, obviously FWD vs RWD has a big part to play here, but it would be good to note that the CTR can be quite a tail happy thing.

Now I left this until last because I don't really care to talk about it that much, but it is important to talk about. The CTR has 306 hp and 295 ftlbs tq. Whatever, go read a brochure, there exists 4cyl's with more hp and tq for all the number grubbing nerds who have no idea how to drive.

- The power to weight is decent for it's cost and where it's placed against other competition. This car will spin it's tires through 1st all the way to the top of 2nd if you're anal enough.

- If you've got decent clutch and throttle control and love to abuse your drive train, you can do those crazy 0-60 posted times of like 5.0 seconds.

- This one actually matters, it revs incredibly well and has very nice power delivery almost entirely through spirited powerband*

- This car will send you to jail quickly.

- Doesn't have a torque dip hurr durr.

With all of that said, the power is nice to have, I will admit, but it does not equate to a greater experience entirely, power gets old. Those people that get into this car thinking it's crazy fast and it's so quick from 0-60, 'nothing can beat me' kind of attitude will be sorely mistaken when a real AWD monster shows up (ie. Trackhawk as an absurd example) and eats them for a morning snack; the ethos of the CTR is in line with the 86, but on a quicker, faster, and more serious note. Not enough people seem to know this.

The car is meant to handle. That's why I bought it.

I didn't proof read, don't @ me.
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Last edited by Jordanwolf; 10-09-2020 at 04:07 PM. Reason: Actually giving it some fluff
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Old 10-08-2020, 01:11 PM   #2
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CTR is ping pong boom faster.


To be continued when I have time...
Well said! Bravo! Jordanwolf for Prime Minister!

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Old 10-08-2020, 01:24 PM   #3
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Thanks captain obvious...???

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Old 10-08-2020, 10:30 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Jordanwolf View Post
CTR is ping pong boom faster.


To be continued when I have time...
Depends on what type of fast, doesn’t it. I assume an 86/BRZ is faster around a tight autocross course.
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Old 10-09-2020, 12:23 AM   #5
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Depends on what type of fast, doesnít it. I assume an 86/BRZ is faster around a tight autocross course.
Idk about that, there's a couple type r's at my local autocrosses and they'll murder me stock for stock (even running stickier, albeit not 200tw tires). Honda seriously dialed in that car for fwd perfection. They also have torque. That means a lot when dealing with tight courses. If I screw up and fall below 4k rpm I'm stuck waiting to get into the power again. Not an issue with the type r.
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Old 10-09-2020, 07:38 AM   #6
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Depends on what type of fast, doesnít it. I assume an 86/BRZ is faster around a tight autocross course.
Unfortunately this is not correct. The type R is significantly faster in autoX and I believe the national champion for DS. This brings up the discussion of why the twins are in the same class as the Type R, STi, Golf R, Focus RS, Velocter N but that's another discussion.
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Old 10-09-2020, 08:44 AM   #7
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Idk about that, there's a couple type r's at my local autocrosses and they'll murder me stock for stock (even running stickier, albeit not 200tw tires). Honda seriously dialed in that car for fwd perfection. They also have torque. That means a lot when dealing with tight courses. If I screw up and fall below 4k rpm I'm stuck waiting to get into the power again. Not an issue with the type r.

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Unfortunately this is not correct. The type R is significantly faster in autoX and I believe the national champion for DS. This brings up the discussion of why the twins are in the same class as the Type R, STi, Golf R, Focus RS, Velocter N but that's another discussion.
Fair enough, I assumed a BRZ/86 would be quicker. Thatís pretty impressive for a fwd car, Iíve read the hype and watched reviews on the Type R, impressive vehicle, but assumed the twins would be faster in this scenario, guess not. ďGrin factor?Ē thatís another thread I guess.
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:38 PM   #8
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Thanks captain obvious...???

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Old 10-09-2020, 04:09 PM   #9
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Spot on, I love my Type R.
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Old 10-09-2020, 04:31 PM   #10
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I have both 2015 FRS, and 2019 CTR. FRS is my track car. CTR is daily driver. Any problems you've heard with the CTR, I've had. I've had the second gear grind (fixed with fluid change), fuel pump failure (fixed under warranty not recall since my car wasn't "affected"), wastegate actuator sounds like keys jangling everytime you shift. All in all though I really enjoy my CTR. CTR is stupid easy to drive, like its almost cheater version of a manual transmission.
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Old 10-09-2020, 05:00 PM   #11
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Old 10-09-2020, 05:41 PM   #12
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Very nice. Seems like we have some CTR lurkers here I didn't know about

How did you go about figuring out you had the fuel pump issue, or just heard it by chance?
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Old 10-09-2020, 05:57 PM   #13
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Very nice. Seems like we have some CTR lurkers here I didn't know about

How did you go about figuring out you had the fuel pump issue, or just heard it by chance?
I didn't have to figure out lol. I got stranded, car wouldn't start, just crank forever. The car was outside of the "affected" cars and their build date. My CTR has build date of 09/2019.
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Old 10-09-2020, 06:32 PM   #14
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That's funny you mentioned the 86 is plenty practical enough unless you're a musician. I am one and that's actually why I bought mine over a miata. My qualifications were to be able to haul all of my gear plus one person. No miata could really do that for me, maybe with a trunk rack but that's asking for theft imo. Fold the seats down and I can fit my amp, pedalboard, couple guitars, and some of the drummer's equipment (and the drummer!). Don't get me wrong, I'd kill to make it a hatch, even a normal sedan would work better. But it *just* works for me, and it's super fun and cheap to drive. If I played drums tho, I'd get a different car lol
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