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Old 09-28-2020, 03:17 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
You are saying some premix formula could be made, but you are not providing evidence or reasoning to suggest it could be made. Oil is needed to lubricate the combustion cylinder at the apex seal regardless of roller bearings. Emissions would still be the same or worse than other ICEs, and at high boost levels and at Tesla Roadster levels of performance, there is no way it would compare to the reliability and maintenance of an EV.
Straight oil isn't the problem, it's the additives that destroy the cat. Premix still has some anti-wear additives. If you just burned straight castor oil or something it would burn just fine, since it's just hydrocarbons that break down and combust at high temperature. The oil is completely consumed so you don't really need to worry about additives.

With silicon nitride seals, seal life is very good.

I'm not really suggesting that this is the best way to get 2000hp, I'm saying you can make a lighter car with a rotary engine than is possible with an electric drivetrain. The reason is that an electric drivetrain needs a lot of battery capacity to have any reasonable range, and that battery is thus capable of supply large amounts of power.
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Old 09-28-2020, 12:56 PM   #128
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Straight oil isn't the problem, it's the additives that destroy the cat. Premix still has some anti-wear additives. If you just burned straight castor oil or something it would burn just fine, since it's just hydrocarbons that break down and combust at high temperature. The oil is completely consumed so you don't really need to worry about additives.

With silicon nitride seals, seal life is very good.

I'm not really suggesting that this is the best way to get 2000hp, I'm saying you can make a lighter car with a rotary engine than is possible with an electric drivetrain. The reason is that an electric drivetrain needs a lot of battery capacity to have any reasonable range, and that battery is thus capable of supply large amounts of power.
Show me a rotary engine that meets modern emissions and fuel economy standards at all points (start-up, idling, city, highway, light load, heavy load).

The Koenigsegg 2.0L 3-cylinder, twin-charged motor weighs 70kg and produces 600hp. You are saying a Wankel can make the same power and do better, or maybe just cheaper?

Still, here are the latest EVs. If battery packs can reduce in size because of light materials or just improvements in energy yields, or if battery charging will be so fast that charging is a non-issue, so batteries don't have to be as big, then the case for the ICE gets worse. Regardless, my whole argument is that there is a point at which there is a crossover in weight/reliability/cost with ICEs and EVs, and that point might be 1000-2000hp, but whatever it is, it exists. To get an ICE vehicle to match the Tesla Roadster's performance with the same reliability would likely cost a lot more. Hell, the Model S Plaid is $140k and beats a 911 Turbo in all metrics that I am aware of, except maybe top speed or like 100-200mph, so the crossover already happened. It is faster 0-60, quarter mile and track time at Laguna Seca.



https://newatlas.com/automotive/equi...lectric-motor/

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The most recent information we can find from Tesla is from six years ago, so no doubt things have improved, but at that point the Model S motor was making 270 kW (362 hp) at a weight of 32 kg (70 lb). That equates to about 8.4 kW/kg...

Equipmake's upcoming Ampere motor is projected to weigh less than 10 kg (22 lb) and make a whopping 220 kW (295 hp) at a sky-high 30,000 rpm, meaning it offers more than 20 kW/kg.
https://www.lucidmotors.com/media-ro...g-performance/

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Combining these motors with an inverter and an integrated transmission and differential creates a state of the art, 900V+ electric drive unit that weighs just 163lb (74kg) and is small enough to fit inside a standard airline carry-on roller bag. Each drive unit packs over 650hp, with a power density that is well beyond anything else offered on the EV market at 41hp per liter. This compactness allows for one, two, or even three units to be used to power a Lucid Air. In total, Lucid’s drive units are 45 percent lighter and up to 59 percent more powerful than the closest competitor. For their power, the motors are two and a half times more volumetrically compact than the closest competitor. Also notable is the fact that the motors can spin up to 20,000 rpm, a significant performance advantage over the competition.
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:03 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Show me a rotary engine that meets modern emissions and fuel economy standards at all points (start-up, idling, city, highway, light load, heavy load).

The Koenigsegg 2.0L 3-cylinder, twin-charged motor weighs 70kg and produces 600hp. You are saying a Wankel can make the same power and do better, or maybe just cheaper?
It's not about what engines have been produced, it's about the principles that make it work...a rotary can have low emissions if it burns straight oil at a high temperature. The same goes with high revving NA engines, there is NOTHING challenging about making them meet emissions at all even though people keep saying it. "Emissions killed [my favorite engine]" is just a popular internet saying among car enthusiasts who don't actually understand what goes into emissions standards.

I guarantee you the Koenigsegg engine does not weigh 70kg...not when you add the turbos, electric generator, exhaust, intercooler, radiator, and emissions equipment. 70kg would be about right for the bare engine. A turbo Honda L15B7 is close to 130kg all in, and I guarantee you that engine is lighter than the Koenigsegg.
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:37 PM   #130
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It's not about what engines have been produced, it's about the principles that make it work...a rotary can have low emissions if it burns straight oil at a high temperature. The same goes with high revving NA engines, there is NOTHING challenging about making them meet emissions at all even though people keep saying it. "Emissions killed [my favorite engine]" is just a popular internet saying among car enthusiasts who don't actually understand what goes into emissions standards.

I guarantee you the Koenigsegg engine does not weigh 70kg...not when you add the turbos, electric generator, exhaust, intercooler, radiator, and emissions equipment. 70kg would be about right for the bare engine. A turbo Honda L15B7 is close to 130kg all in, and I guarantee you that engine is lighter than the Koenigsegg.
First sentence: Emissions and fuel economy standards go hand in hand.

Second sentence: It’s a Koenigsegg—not a Honda.
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Old 09-28-2020, 02:29 PM   #131
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Batteries are still the problem. Hydrogen refinement (for production) and hydrogen storage and refueling are what needed to be worked on instead this battery nonsense (for vehicles and heavy equipment) IMO.
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Old 09-28-2020, 06:56 PM   #132
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Batteries are still the problem. Hydrogen refinement (for production) and hydrogen storage and refueling are what needed to be worked on instead this battery nonsense (for vehicles and heavy equipment) IMO.
Hydrogen gets us smaller batteries, but we still will need a lot more batteries. We don’t need hydrogen for more range on passenger cars. We just need to install an Ativan dispenser for the range anxiety. We have fast charging. We just need more stations, which is easy and cheap enough to install. Obviously there are electric Semis, so there is a market place for them.

Hydrogen is a good solution for some heavy applications and interstate Semis, but there are potential solutions such as battery swapping that might make it a non-starter. We need a ton more hydrogen production from water electrolysis because it essentially doesn’t exist. We also need a lot more utilities than with batteries alone because we need energy to make hydrogen and to transport hydrogen to ultimately use hydrogen to charge batteries. We would have less need for batteries though, yet recycling batteries for making batteries and for grid storage means hydrogen is less efficient.
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Old 09-28-2020, 07:06 PM   #133
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Batteries are still the problem. Hydrogen refinement (for production) and hydrogen storage and refueling are what needed to be worked on instead this battery nonsense (for vehicles and heavy equipment) IMO.
Coincidentally, I ran across this article today. Not necessarily automotive related, but various infrastructure happenings.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...first-shipment
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Old 09-28-2020, 07:24 PM   #134
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Hydrogen gets us smaller batteries, but we still will need a lot more batteries. We don’t need hydrogen for more range on passenger cars. We just need to install an Ativan dispenser for the range anxiety. We have fast charging. We just need more stations, which is easy and cheap enough to install. Obviously there are electric Semis, so there is a market place for them.

Hydrogen is a good solution for some heavy applications and interstate Semis, but there are potential solutions such as battery swapping that might make it a non-starter. We need a ton more hydrogen production from water electrolysis because it essentially doesn’t exist. We also need a lot more utilities than with batteries alone because we need energy to make hydrogen and to transport hydrogen to ultimately use hydrogen to charge batteries. We would have less need for batteries though, yet recycling batteries for making batteries and for grid storage means hydrogen is less efficient.

This goes back to the conversation about not being able to leave a electric car out in low temperatures. Large battery packs are a liability if I can't park my car outside my own residence without irreparable damage to the power train just because it was cold.

Those problems might not exist in kalifornia, but they do exist in about half of the rest of the country.
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Old 09-28-2020, 08:14 PM   #135
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First sentence: Emissions and fuel economy standards go hand in hand.

Second sentence: It’s a Koenigsegg—not a Honda.
Emissions and fuel economy standards are completely different -_-

You can still buy a gas guzzling Mercedes G or Bentley today but those engines are very clean in terms of toxic emissions.

Koenigsegg badges don't make aluminum and steel magically lighter...the intercooler and turbo are going to be at least 50lbs alone, and even a carbon fiber crank case 2L long block would weigh well over 100lbs.
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Old 09-28-2020, 08:46 PM   #136
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This goes back to the conversation about not being able to leave a electric car out in low temperatures. Large battery packs are a liability if I can't park my car outside my own residence without irreparable damage to the power train just because it was cold.

Those problems might not exist in kalifornia, but they do exist in about half of the rest of the country.
I think the batteries operate in the cold, but the range is affected, which may or may not be an issue. The average person drives 30 miles a day. I don’t know if this average is lower or higher in areas of extreme weather. The life of the batteries could be affected too, but I am not sure. Regardless, the batteries in the hydrogen cars will suffer the same degradation if that is the case. Range shouldn’t be greatly affected like it is for EVs because hydrogen in the main storage system for energy.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleante...-cold-36c/amp/


Question: currently the Honda Clarity, Hyundai Nexo and Toyota Mirai are $58k and have pretty poor performance. I don’t know what makes them so expensive if it isn’t the powertrain, but do you think that price-tag will go down much?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleante...-vehicles/amp/
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Old 09-28-2020, 09:29 PM   #137
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This goes back to the conversation about not being able to leave a electric car out in low temperatures. Large battery packs are a liability if I can't park my car outside my own residence without irreparable damage to the power train just because it was cold.
Lithium titanate is good down to -20F and can be stored even colder I think, so good enough for most of the country. I think some of the experimental aluminum ion batteries can charge at -40. When I buy my next car I'm probably gonna drop a lithium titanate starter battery in.

You can park your Lotus Evija outside no problem
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Old 09-28-2020, 09:30 PM   #138
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I think the batteries operate in the cold, but the range is affected, which may or may not be an issue. The average person drives 30 miles a day. I don’t know if this average is lower or higher in areas of extreme weather. The life of the batteries could be affected too, but I am not sure. Regardless, the batteries in the hydrogen cars will suffer the same degradation if that is the case. Range shouldn’t be greatly affected like it is for EVs because hydrogen in the main storage system for energy.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleante...-cold-36c/amp/
It's not about driving the cars in the cold and losing range per se, it's about them sitting in the cold for an extended period, ie the batteries freezing and becoming uselessly damaged. If hydrogen vehicles suffer the same issues, the whole thing is a non starter unless you live in a temperate climate.
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Old 09-28-2020, 09:33 PM   #139
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Lithium titanate is good down to -20F and can be stored even colder I think, so good enough for most of the country. I think some of the experimental aluminum ion batteries can go to -40.

Aka you can park your Lotus Evija outside no problem
It gets negative -15f here sometimes and I live right on the mason-dixon line.

What country are you referring to ?
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Old 09-28-2020, 09:39 PM   #140
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What country are you referring to ?
The USA? lol. Where does it get below -30? I thought even Illinois or Minnesota don't really go below -30. You should be able to store a lithium titanate at -40F=-40C.

I've only lived on the East Coast for 2 years but the coldest I saw was -5F in NYC and -19F in Vermont in mid-January 2019. 2020 winter was much warmer than that.
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