Back for Another Look

[ermax]

Originally Posted by brainf18

New to the forum, first post. I've been a Porsche guy for over 30 years. I love them. But I learned pretty quickly how expensive Porsche's are to maintain when you track them. So I started looking for an affordable track car that I can daily. I test drove a 2017 BRZ and loved the handling, steering, road feel etc, but I hated the power delivery. The torque dip was a deal breaker...Ended up buying an E90 BMW to track and daily.

With the new BRZ just announced I'm considering taking another look. I really prefer the styling of the new car. Tastes are specific to the individual but I think the designers hit it out of the park. Assuming all the other characteristics that I liked carry over, I'm hoping the power delivery problem (torque dip) is fixed.

I was able to screen grab the "in dash" hp/torque display. when compared to the "old" 2.0L the new 2.4 looks much improved.

Attachment 195948

Time will tell if I end up being a BRZ owner or not. All depends on the "butt dyno" when I test drive it.

Oh no, don’t say torque dip on this forum, you will trigger many and get presented with graphs showing cars with double the HP/Torque that also have dips.

Others have had the same observation as you with regards to the static graph and of course people have to point out that it’s a static image as if anyone was suggesting otherwise. The 2017 graph was inline with baseline dynos by owners so I have no reason to doubt the new static image is also accurate. If the new curve really is accurate then I suspect the new one will have less people saying it’s slow. It’s not an easy car to test drive properly. If you have a salesman in the car you’re not going to keep it over the dip the whole drive so naturally you walk away thinking it’s slow. When I drove mine I had my wife with me and the sales guy didn’t want to cram in the back so I was able to drive it properly. I did a long hold on the TC button and gave it a proper drive sideways. I was ready to end my drive short because I was already sold and my wife convinced me to test the radio and take it on the highway. It wasn’t until I bought a Twin and was doing typical daily driving that I discovered the dip.

If you simply want a Twin for the track the dip isn’t much of an issue. If your also daily driving and aren’t coming from a 1995 Civic DX then the new one is a better candidate.

I’m going to trigger some more people with my next statement, buy the manual!

[AnalogMan]

Don't think of it as a torque 'dip' around 3500 rpm, but a torque bump from 1000-3000 rpm, down there low where you want it for street driving.

I'm sure there are ways to detune the engine to reduce torque below 3000 rpm and 'smooth out' the torque curve.

[brainf18]

Originally Posted by ermax

Oh no, don’t say torque dip on this forum, you will trigger many and get presented with graphs showing cars with double the HP/Torque that also have dips.


I’m going to trigger some more people with my next statement, buy the manual!

No triggers here...I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments.

The test drive I took in 2017 was a "full review". My salesman came with, and at the end he was "green" but never asked me to back off. I started with some easy daily driving in town, then ran the car through the Rev Range merging onto the interstate and finished with a particularly fun section of back road sweepers where I tested the cars cornering limits. (and gave the salesman a bit more of a driving "experience" than he would have liked)

In certain situations the car drove quite well...it fact I was amazed with the chassis! But the power, right in the middle of the RPM range, was lacking. Thus my decision to stay "german" with my E90 daily and 997.2 "fun" car.

Also, I think there are lots of potential 2022 BRZ buyers like me who want a fun car they can daily, track, and put miles on without taking a huge depreciation hit. If I opt for another new 911 or M2 or M3 and put similar miles on them, I could pay for the BRZ just in depreciation costs. Also IMHO, the new high performance german cars have too much power, too much tech, and too many "computers" between the driver and the drive. I think the BRZ is a much needed back to basics sports car with a Power to Weight Ratio (228hp / 2835 lbs) that's just about right. Lastly I really like the updated styling. It has elements from some classic euro front engined designs and looks much more "developed & mature" than the outgoing model.

And to address your second point...Of course it'll be a manual. No self respecting sports car buyer would purchase an automatic and is the reason why a C8 isn't on the list of cars to consider.

[Lantanafrs2]

Oh jeez

[Lantanafrs2]

I don't mind the torque dip. In fact, I pulled a plug wire so I have to drive that much harder. But I'm a superior driver with years of experience.

[ermax]

See... triggered. Hahaha

[StE92ve]

Originally Posted by brainf18

No triggers here...


No self respecting sports car buyer would purchase an automatic

Really? I guess you never read the below:

[brainf18]

Originally Posted by ermax

See... triggered. Hahaha

Wow you sure were right.

[JIM THEO]

IT'S so much faster than the previous model...

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by brainf18

I understand the 2.0 "can" be modded to fix these issues, but that's not my thing. I prefer to purchase a car that comes well sorted from the factory. Thus my love of Porsches. You can literally drive them off the showroom floor directly to a track.

If you want no mods on the car, 2nd gen Subaru BRZ (or Toyota GR86, for that matter) will not be "your" car.
The "budget" nature of these cars requires certain mods for many people.

Even though Subaru says they've added an oil "cooler" to the car, in reality this is more of a heat exchanger than a true cooler.
Some folks even call devices with such a design as "oil warmers".
On ND2 Miatas this thing is believed to be more effective at warming up the oil quicker during cold start, than cooling the oil down at the track.
Oil cooler kits for ND2 require uninstalling that heat exchanger.

In other words, for a track car you'll almost certainly need at least a radiator-style oil cooler, and camber bolts / camber plates.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

If you want no mods on the car, 2nd gen Subaru BRZ (or Toyota GR86, for that matter) will not be "your" car.

??? It should be pretty much the same car... I have the same mods planned for a '22+ that I have on my '17.
Or are you saying that this car will *require* mods, same as 1st-gen? I don't think either strictly *require* mods but for sure a few minor mods for minimal $$$ will pay off at the track.

The "budget" nature of these cars requires certain mods for many people.

For me, for the track, it needs to be a bit stiffer, a bit lower, a lot more front camber, and trackworthy brake pads. I'm sure that will be no prob with the new car...

Even though Subaru says they've added an oil "cooler" to the car, in reality this is more of a heat exchanger than a true cooler.

Oil coolers are heat exchangers. Most are air/oil heat exchangers, this one is coolant/oil.

Some folks even call devices with such a design as "oil warmers".
On ND2 Miatas this thing is believed to be more effective at warming up the oil quicker during cold start, than cooling the oil down at the track.
Oil cooler kits for ND2 require uninstalling that heat exchanger.

Yeah, it should bring oil up to temp quicker, not a bad thing. People that have installed the Forester unit on the current car report anywhere from 0F to 15F cooler oil temps at the track. So we'll see where the new car's oil temps wind up at the track, could be same or could be a bit lower than current car. Fine with me...

In other words, for a track car you'll almost certainly need at least a radiator-style oil cooler, and camber bolts / camber plates.

I doubt you'll need an additional oil cooler on the new car any more than you need one on the current car (I don't run one)... For sure more front camber will be a good idea for track, just like with the current car.

It will be trackable with no mods, just like the current car, but the front tires are gonna hate it tho :O

[ermax]

A water to oil cooler is only an "oil heater" until the oil reaches 197F, after that it becomes an "oil cooler". The coolant never goes over 197F while the oil will easily reach 230F after a hand full of back to back pulls to redline. So although it isn't going to cool as much on track as an air to oil type cooler, it still cools. Subaru is never going to put an air to oil cooler on this car and prolong the warmup phase. As it is my car (with no oil cooler) takes 15mins on the interstate, in the summer in Florida before it reaches 160F. Your average driver will do more harm ragging on the car before it's up to temp than they will once it's over temp.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by brainf18

I understand the 2.0 "can" be modded to fix these issues, but that's not my thing.

Originally Posted by timurrrr

If you want no mods on the car, 2nd gen Subaru BRZ (or Toyota GR86, for that matter) will not be "your" car.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Or are you saying that this car will *require* mods, same as 1st-gen? I don't think either strictly *require* mods but for sure a few minor mods for minimal $$$ will pay off at the track.

Well, the 1st gen also didn't strictly *require* mods

Originally Posted by ZDan

Oil coolers are heat exchangers. Most are air/oil heat exchangers, this one is coolant/oil.

True, I stand corrected!

Originally Posted by ZDan

People that have installed the Forester unit on the current car report anywhere from 0F to 15F cooler oil temps at the track. So we'll see where the new car's oil temps wind up at the track, could be same or could be a bit lower than current car.

Originally Posted by ermax

So although it isn't going to cool as much on track as an air to oil type cooler, it still cools.

I'm skeptical that something that's marginally efficient for a 2.0L engine will be enough for a 2.4L engine that generates ~15-20% more heat.

Originally Posted by ZDan

I doubt you'll need an additional oil cooler on the new car any more than you need one on the current car (I don't run one)... For sure more front camber will be a good idea for track, just like with the current car.

It will be trackable with no mods, just like the current car, but the front tires are gonna hate it tho :O

Yeah it's not like you can't track the stock car (2nd gen or 1st gen); but rather whether it's economically reasonable (burning through tires, stressing the engine increasing the chances of a failure, changing oil more frequently, etc.) and pleasant (torque dip, understeer, worrying about oil temps).

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

I'm skeptical that something that's marginally efficient for a 2.0L engine will be enough for a 2.4L engine that generates ~15-20% more heat.

I think (hope?) the vast majority of the extra heat generated will be dealt with by the cooling system. I bet they are aware that some current owners (not me) are troubled by "high" oil temps of just over 270F at the track, I'd be surprised if the new car runs hotter oil temps at the track vs. current model, I bet it will run a bit cooler.

Yeah it's not like you can't track the stock car (2nd gen or 1st gen); but rather whether it's economically reasonable (burning through tires, stressing the engine increasing the chances of a failure, changing oil more frequently, etc.) and pleasant (torque dip, understeer, worrying about oil temps).

Camber bolts and offset upper mounts, cheap and easy for some decent(ish) front camber! I change my oil every 5000 miles or every 2nd track event (the two usually approximately line up), so not a whole lot more $$$ spent on oil changes vs. factory 7500 (I think?) interval. I don't worry about oil temps, I think it's way overblown...