4A-GE 20v Blacktop

[IIDutch]

Searching up this swap only brings up a photoshopped image and youtube videos of AC mods. Anyone know if its been attempted or of someone who has pursued it further than just an idea? (Whether that was completed or scrapped, would be interesting to see complications they ran into or their documentation on it)

Why? Because its interesting. The 5th gen blacktop 20v has a long lineage of motorsport use, and a favourite in AE86 applications. It may not be the most economical (in terms of comparing it to other options for availability and performance to the dollar), or powerful option which is probably the main reason it seems to be skipped over a lot. But a 4AGE that revs to 10k rpm with ITB's in an 86 would be a great homage to the AE86 and Toyota Motorsport history.

Have read up on a few beams swaps, which is a great option to keep the Toyota philosophy behind a lightweight chassis with a NA 4 cylinder in a FR configuration. But the 4AGE 20v is a lot more interesting to me and swaps are not all that complicated when you can fab mounts, do your own wiring, and run a standalone to avoid mating ECU's. Just interested to see others experiences with this swap if I decide to go forward with it in the future. It's good to see the journey of others to influence yours and helps you think of any changes or adaptations you may not consider otherwise.

[Ashikabi]

I don't know anyone who has done it but I know there is a shop in Michigan doing 2AZ-FE swaps

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[IIDutch]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

I don't know anyone who has done it but I know there is a shop in Michigan doing 2AZ-FE swaps

Saw his thread on here and some of his youtube videos as well. Definitely a cool swap, and is the most modern toyota 4 cylinder that would work in a FR configuration. Can't argue against the new technology that helps those engines make so much power per cylinder and keeping the weight down with an aluminum block.

Engine sits really high though which he attributes to using modified 2jz mounts and the stock transmission. Different engine mounts, subframe adjustments, and adjusting the trans mounts could probably tuck it under the stock hood. Just speculating though, would be interesting to hear what @srscion thinks about how much room there is

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by IIDutch

Saw his thread on here and some of his youtube videos as well. Definitely a cool swap, and is the most modern toyota 4 cylinder that would work in a FR configuration. Can't argue against the new technology that helps those engines make so much power per cylinder and keeping the weight down with an aluminum block.



Engine sits really high though which he attributes to using modified 2jz mounts and the stock transmission. Different engine mounts, subframe adjustments, and adjusting the trans mounts could probably tuck it under the stock hood. Just speculating though, would be interesting to hear what @srscion thinks about how much room there is

The Honda K fits with no cutting so I think it could probably be done. But if it requires a custom oil pan that might be an issue. I know they were going for a low cost swap option. And oil pans are expensive

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[IIDutch]

Originally Posted by IIDutch

most modern toyota 4 cylinder that would work in a FR configuration.

Well I forgot about the AR engine series when I wrote that, afaik the AR series which replaced the AZ is the most recent 4 cylinder Toyota uses in a rwd configuration. If I'm wrong about that someone please chime in

[IIDutch]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

The Honda K fits with no cutting so I think it could probably be done. But if it requires a custom oil pan that might be an issue. I know they were going for a low cost swap option. And oil pans are expensive

Good point, could be done just a matter of how many parts you're willing to fabricate. K24 seems to be close to an inch shorter than the 2az (some say its 26" some 25.5" versus the 26.8" of the 2az). But even that extra inch or so can be hidden by cutting the supports of the oem hood while retaining the exterior skin

[Turdinator]

The black top 20v is a great engine that stock will have less power than an fa20 and without FI will always have less torque. If you were to mod it to rev and make NA power you would want a much lower final drive to compensate. And after all of that you probably would make less wheel horse power than a full bolt on FA20 on E85. It would be a lot of money and effort to go backwards in power and drivability. It would make a nice sound tho.

[x808drifter]

There is a reason Tsuchiya replaced his 4AGE with a 7AGE.
Personally I'd go 3SGE/BEAMS for N/A or a 3SGTE for boost.

Ultimately, I wanna do a high comp 1uz.

[AxisPower]

My 4age blacktop with cams and exhaust made somewhere around 140 whp back in my ae86. In a car that weighs a lot less I guess thats fine, but it would be a pretty noticeable loss of power in a newer 86.

[KR-S]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

The black top 20v is a great engine that stock will have less power than an fa20 and without FI will always have less torque. If you were to mod it to rev and make NA power you would want a much lower final drive to compensate. And after all of that you probably would make less wheel horse power than a full bolt on FA20 on E85. It would be a lot of money and effort to go backwards in power and drivability. It would make a nice sound tho.

Pretty much this.

Too expensive and far less power. 10K RPM requires a lot of expensive parts. I like Initial D too, but come on.

[IIDutch]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

The black top 20v is a great engine that stock will have less power than an fa20 and without FI will always have less torque. If you were to mod it to rev and make NA power you would want a much lower final drive to compensate. And after all of that you probably would make less wheel horse power than a full bolt on FA20 on E85. It would be a lot of money and effort to go backwards in power and drivability. It would make a nice sound tho.

Having a lower final drive would be a must thats for sure. Even if you built it up to rev high, without a gearing change it would take for ever to wind out the full rpm range. Money and power wise yea the swap makes zero sense, it'd more be for uniqueness or 'to pay homage' towards Toyotas history. Driving pleasure definitely wouldn't come from an increase in performance, and the useablility of the car would suffer, but can't help but wonder how big the smile on your face would be cruising in something that ties Toyota's engineering together even if it'd be slower than one that came off the line.

Best bang for buck of course is to work with the FA20. Or if someone was deadset on a toyota powerplant, a beams out of an sxe10 would give you the toyota lineage and performance increase. However the infamous 20v in a car that maintains the framework the 86 was designed off, would be an amazing sight and sound. It would take 'f*ck it' money though as anyone doing this would probably not be doing this to their only gt86 (even if saving money by doing all the fab and engine building yourself)

[IIDutch]

Originally Posted by KR-S

Too expensive and far less power. 10K RPM requires a lot of expensive parts. I like Initial D too, but come on.

The eurobeat is calling. Absolutely not practical at all, but if it was done it'd be a pretty special build even if its only special because no one else would waste their time doing it lool

Originally Posted by x808drifter

Personally I'd go 3SGE/BEAMS for N/A or a 3SGTE for boost

I don't think the 3SGTE would be worth it, as all the easily adaptable bellhousings would remove the tilt that engine needs for oil pickup and sump. Custom bellhousing is outside of my abilities and getting one made would be more expensive than welding up or buying a top mount manifold for the beams. Beams would make the most sense to get 'affordable' performance from a toyota powerplant that maintains the design principles toyota had for its driver feel orientated cars (lightweight chassis, high revving low displacement motor)

Originally Posted by AxisPower

My 4age blacktop with cams and exhaust made somewhere around 140 whp back in my ae86. In a car that weighs a lot less I guess thats fine, but it would be a pretty noticeable loss of power in a newer 86.

Squeezing more out of the blacktop would be a necessity to offset the hp/cyl it makes compared to the fa20. Getting it around that 180whp area wouldn't be too far fetched with good head work and lightweight drivetrain components. Helping the 20v breathe like you did with your cams/exhaust goes a long way with those engines, may not even need any short block work with the 11:1 factory compression of the blacktop. Though lighter pistons/rods would reduce vibrations at high rpm. I wonder how much cylinder volume would change (max/min not displacement) if you ran extra thick headgaskets and a higher compression piston to offset, probably minimally if any since afaik most pistons raising compression will take up more space inside the cylinder.

Did you have any other head work to go with your cams? Have seen lots of good results from port/polish, oversized exhaust valves with cutout seats, and springs/retainers/cam lift to match. Also am I thinking of the right engine when I say the 4age benefits from having the exhaust valves being slightly larger than the intakes?

[AxisPower]

Originally Posted by IIDutch

Did you have any other head work to go with your cams? Have seen lots of good results from port/polish, oversized exhaust valves with cutout seats, and springs/retainers/cam lift to match. Also am I thinking of the right engine when I say the 4age benefits from having the exhaust valves being slightly larger than the intakes?

Nothing was really done to my 4ag internally, just tomei poncams, some kind of aftermarket header + exhaust and itb trumpets. Check out manon racing in New Zealand for all their 4ag stuff. They can build you a 4ag that easily makes over 200 whp but just like anything its about how much you're willing to spend. In this case it'll be easily over 10k usd just for a longblock.

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by AxisPower

Nothing was really done to my 4ag internally, just tomei poncams, some kind of aftermarket header + exhaust and itb trumpets. Check out manon racing in New Zealand for all their 4ag stuff. They can build you a 4ag that easily makes over 200 whp but just like anything its about how much you're willing to spend. In this case it'll be easily over 10k usd just for a longblock.

If you're gonna spend that kind of money you might as well get a Toyota V8 and at least be fast

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