How to screw up your cars handling and ride - step by step!

[Lav]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

So... do we have to proceed step by step, or can we skip steps?

I dont even know if you're still on these forums but i actually laughed out loud to this. Great comedic timing

[pallen]

Can we talk about sway bars?
So, I get the general idea about beefier sway bars to hold the body roll. In general I love the gokart like feel of a car with very little body roll. I still remember the thrill of a buddy's old '74 Porsche 914. It wasn't a fast car, but it was totally flat in the curves. My 86 reminds me of that feel a lot, but I'm wondering if I could accentuate that fun go kart feel further.

So what happens if you take one of the twins stock and just swap with stiffer sway bars? My guess is that it will become more unforgiving about weight transfers that aren't perfectly smooth. Would stickier tires be a requirement? I'm ok with stock travel and dampening for "streetability", but a little more of that gokart cornering feel would be fun too, even if it doesn't make me faster on a lap around a track. Are you better of with stiffer springs all around to resist the roll, or can you do that with sway bars and still get the benefit of stock travel and dampening for comfort. Or, will this just make things overly twitchy?

[strat61caster]

Imho just go buy some bars and try it, nobody here will be able to accurately describe what effect they will have for you and correlate it to your own expectations and desires.

It's a couple hundred bucks and they can usually be resold without a ton of hassle, hell try to pick up someone else's, there's a fair few 86s in Texas.

[N_Raged]

Originally Posted by pallen

So what happens if you take one of the twins stock and just swap with stiffer sway bars?

The TRD handling package includes stiffer front and rear sway bars so you can do some research on how people like them. The reviews on YouTube of the 2020 TRD edition 86 are generally favorable of the car's handling.
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...0&postcount=10

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by pallen

Can we talk about sway bars?
So, I get the general idea about beefier sway bars to hold the body roll. In general I love the gokart like feel of a car with very little body roll. I still remember the thrill of a buddy's old '74 Porsche 914. It wasn't a fast car, but it was totally flat in the curves. My 86 reminds me of that feel a lot, but I'm wondering if I could accentuate that fun go kart feel further.

So what happens if you take one of the twins stock and just swap with stiffer sway bars? My guess is that it will become more unforgiving about weight transfers that aren't perfectly smooth. Would stickier tires be a requirement? I'm ok with stock travel and dampening for "streetability", but a little more of that gokart cornering feel would be fun too, even if it doesn't make me faster on a lap around a track. Are you better of with stiffer springs all around to resist the roll, or can you do that with sway bars and still get the benefit of stock travel and dampening for comfort. Or, will this just make things overly twitchy?

Stock twins with good condition shocks and slightly larger than stock swaybars is pretty nice. 20mm front and 15 (later model OEM) or 16mm rear.

- Andrew

[pallen]

I thought I would update for folks that might be reading through this thread. I went with the Blox Racing 21mm front 17mm rear sway bars on an otherwise stock, low mileage suspension. Blox had the set on sale for $250, so I figured it was a fairly low risk chance to give it a try. Not a huge difference, but I notice it most in the rear. Things aren't quite as floaty in back in sharp turns. Still comfy for street driving hitting bumps and dips and such, which is what I was after. Feels more level in turns, but hard to tell what is placebo because I expect it.

Not sure how I feel about the Blox quality, I had to drill out the holes in the front bar because the end links wouldn't go through. They were almost 1mm too small. My guess is they were spot on before the powder coating. It all worked out. I mean, its just a steel bar bent the right way with holes in it...

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Stock twins with good condition shocks and slightly larger than stock swaybars is pretty nice. 20mm front and 15 (later model OEM) or 16mm rear.

- Andrew

I imagine it makes for a gentler landing when you lean into the bump stops.

[e30cabrio]

Originally Posted by pallen

I thought I would update for folks that might be reading through this thread. I went with the Blox Racing 21mm front 17mm rear sway bars on an otherwise stock, low mileage suspension. Blox had the set on sale for $250, so I figured it was a fairly low risk chance to give it a try. Not a huge difference, but I notice it most in the rear. Things aren't quite as floaty in back in sharp turns. Still comfy for street driving hitting bumps and dips and such, which is what I was after. Feels more level in turns, but hard to tell what is placebo because I expect it.

Not sure how I feel about the Blox quality, I had to drill out the holes in the front bar because the end links wouldn't go through. They were almost 1mm too small. My guess is they were spot on before the powder coating. It all worked out. I mean, its just a steel bar bent the right way with holes in it...

Thanks, I just ordered them. 247 delivered is theft!

[ThaDonJsuan]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I remember the first time I drove a BRZ a little before it hit the streets and thinking....damn....Subaru/Toyota got serious.

Anyway, this is a list of things that I see owners doing to their 86's...often with good intentions and parts bought hoping to improve things, but they end up chasing more parts to get things right. All of these on their own are detrimental, but can sometimes be "worked around" to some extent. Unfortunately many cars check off multiple boxes and sometimes all of them...resulting in a car that is a big step back from the factory.

I'll skip "stanced" cars (slammed, stretched tires, massive camber)...I don't think anyone does that expecting not to sacrifice function for what they think looks good. Different strokes.

These are some of the common things I see:

1. Staggered wheels/tires

It's a good look and definitely makes your car look like it has a lot of power. Unfortunately our cars don't have a lot of power.

It's also a great way to build in some extra understeer that's difficult to tune out. Staggered wheels are common on cars with a lot of power but are not necessary MOST the time here.

This one CAN be worked around but there's just no need to complicate things.


2. Big ass heavy wheels

Even if you got a great deal on a buddy's 18x9.5 wheels, it may not be a great idea to use 27 lb steamrollers at each corner. Most of us don't need that much tire either. Keep it light and it'll feel like your dampers are much more capable. You'll stop and go faster too.


3. Big drop on lowering springs

If it looks a racecar then it must handle like one, right? Unfortunately, it doesn't exactly work like that. A little drop can improve things with proper spring rates, but past an inch or more and you start making big compromises and riding the bumpstops before you even hit a bump. It's a sure way to downgrade your handling. Aftermarket shocks may help in some ways, but don't solve the travel problem.


4. Big drop on coilovers

With some coilovers you don't need to worry about bump travel as much, but geometry is still a concern when lowering 2 inches. A big change in roll center height and changes in the dynamic alignment can be felt from the driver's seat...and it feels sloppy.

I know what you're thinking. There are a ton of cars on here that hit the track and handle well with a lowered ride height. If you must have that really low center of gravity than you must use very firm spring rates (and then quality dampers to match) or use geometry correction parts. That's what the fast guys and girls at the track are doing....not slamming their crappy coilovers to the ground and expecting all to be well.


5. Poor or mismatched dampers

Whether it's running very stiff springs on the stock shocks (or riding the firm bumpstops), or turning your adjustable dampers up to full stiff, damping that's not matched to the springs won't feel good. Underdamped will feel bouncy, floaty, and generally crappy in transitions. Overdamped will feel harsh, crashy, and might hurt your back. None of this is good for ride quality or handling.

Sometimes an adjustable won't have a "good" setting because the quality of the valving is just plain bad. This is more noticeable with firmer spring rates.


6. Alignment

Anything less than -1 degrees camber up front is a recipe for understeer. I still see people trying to get their camber "back to 0" after lowering. Don't do this! Tire wear isn't really a concern until you get to -2, so don't be shy...add a little camber and enjoy. Most enthusiasts will get BETTER and more even tire wear anyway. Toe is the tire killer.


7. Tire choice

Really stiff springs with all season or OEM tires can reduce grip as you'll be quickly/easily overloading the tire. Match your spring rates to your tire choice.

Running sticky tires on soft OEM springs is a problem too, but you will still gain grip from the tire. It'll just feel sloppy and move around a lot.


--------------------------------------------------

Follow all of these steps and you can turn your well tuned factory BRZ/FRS into a sloppy, numb, slow reacting, pig of a car. Please don't though, it's too much fun when set up right.


- Andy

Thanks Andy for the details - I have a stock BRZ with 17x7.5 wheels and michelin primacy 215 and Brembos + Sachs Dampers (all stock). If I wanted more grip are you saying I should basically just get better grip tires (hankook rs4?) and add some camber? (how much camber?).


I've only been to the track 3 times - 3 weekends in a row actually

[churchx]

If you still have OE alignment, more camber (especially front) will help a LOT to add grip on track and reduce understeer. Am i wrong that by now your tire outsides are rather worn? Starting numbers i'd aim for track would be -3 front camber and zero toe, -2.5 rear and slight rear toe-in of +0.1dg per wheel. Might not be the optimal, as it is also tires & track specific, and one should use pyrometer to find most optimal alignment, but will get you in ballpark.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by ThaDonJsuan

Thanks Andy for the details - I have a stock BRZ with 17x7.5 wheels and michelin primacy 215 and Brembos + Sachs Dampers (all stock). If I wanted more grip are you saying I should basically just get better grip tires (hankook rs4?) and add some camber? (how much camber?).


I've only been to the track 3 times - 3 weekends in a row actually

RS4s are a solid track day tire.

I would definitely recommend a good alignment along with them. You'll need at least camber bolts, but with stickier tires you could also think about camber plates to get the camber you really need. For the rear, lower control arms will get everything perfect but aren't 100% necessary. Nice to have though. Toe arms a little less necessary than that, but also nice to have.

To be clear though, all that is to just get things right and get a nice basic set up that performs well and keeps your tires happy. You're already out there having fun and that's awesome.

Don't forget brake pads and you should start thinking about an oil cooler if you haven't already. Those are the important reliability and safety things.

Oh and one great way to get faster is some driver's instruction!

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

I uhh...had some free time.





Rest of it is here:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CFzNtLPH..._web_copy_link



Hopefully Fred Puhn thinks it's funny and doesn't send me a cease and desist...
The original book is here:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...asp?RecID=1652
It's pretty old but still good.


- Andrew

[Evan55]

Im looking for track alignment suggestions.
My usage is mainly track, but the car is driven to the track (4+ hrs) and occasionally around town. (Not my DD)
My car is a 17 PP with stock suspension except for camber plates and rear lower control arms.
Tires are Hankook RS4
Ive got over 150 track days under my belt, including a few seasons of Spec Miata racing where I won quite a few races, but its been a long time since I drove anything other than a trailered miata racecar so I'm looking for a good starting point for this strut car on street tires!
I like a looser car that rotates well.

Its tempting to go straight for -3 degrees up front and -2.4 in the back but Im just not sure how that would wear tires on those long drives to the track.
For toe Im thinking 0 front, and just a hair of toe-in in the rear, like 1/16


thoughts?

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Evan55

Im looking for track alignment suggestions.
My usage is mainly track, but the car is driven to the track (4+ hrs) and occasionally around town. (Not my DD)
My car is a 17 PP with stock suspension except for camber plates and rear lower control arms.
Tires are Hankook RS4
Ive got over 150 track days under my belt, including a few seasons of Spec Miata racing where I won quite a few races, but its been a long time since I drove anything other than a trailered miata racecar so I'm looking for a good starting point for this strut car on street tires!
I like a looser car that rotates well.

Its tempting to go straight for -3 degrees up front and -2.4 in the back but Im just not sure how that would wear tires on those long drives to the track.
For toe Im thinking 0 front, and just a hair of toe-in in the rear, like 1/16


thoughts?

That is pretty close to my setup and I get the tiniest bit of camber wear. I am also DD'ing my car right now, street tires are wearing fine.

If you like rotation ditch the RS4's and go to something like the Dunlop Z3.