AP Racing brake systems in development

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

...


And you say the Endurance kit is still 5lbs lighter than OE?

Moral of the story, Timmy got FI. Timmy exceeding most 'stage1' specs.

Timmy goes as fast as he can into turns, Timmy a noob who may overbrake.

Timmy want Endurance!

Timmy gonna call and place order, Timmy thinks, wow, Timmy see's the light...

Jeff, thank you. And thanks to Timmy, too.

Thanks for that...good stuff. Your response literally made me lol. Again though...read my last comment...we have yet to have a single person have any heat-related issues with the Sprint Kit, even on FI cars. It can and likely will happen. We just don't know when. Think of the Endurance kit as added insurance. If you can live with the extra 5 lbs. per side vs. the Sprint kit, you'll also have the best brake duct attachment setup on the market.

Yes, the Endurance kit is roughly 5 lbs. lighter per side vs. stock, and the Sprint kit is 10 lbs. lighter per side vs. stock.

Total unsprung weight savings on car vs. stock:
Sprint System= 20 lbs.
Endurance System= 10 lbs.
Both kits are on the shelf and ready to ship.:happy0180:

[JRitt]

Brake Feel

If you put on our Endurance kit or Sprint kit with the same pads, you won't notice any difference in feel. All of the hardware is essentially the same. The calipers are the same...they flex/or don't flex the same amount. The discs are the same basic material, with the same J Hook slot pattern. The brake lines are the same. The material of the brackets is the same...same stiffness, etc. Everything will feel the same when cold. Everything will feel the same warm. Everything will feel the same all the way up until the point at which the Sprint system runs out of heat capacity. That was kind of the point of my Timmy story. At that point, wherever that is, the Endurance system will still feel great, while the Sprint system wilts with a soft pedal, etc. Again, up until that point, everything will feel the same if you're using the same pad compounds with both setups.

Pads- Assuming all of the hardware is decent and functioning properly, brake pad choice IMO is the single greatest determinant of feel. Initial bite, coefficient of friction as heat rises, release, compressability...those are all pad qualities that are transmitted through the pedal, to your foot, to your brain in a response loop. The brake pad's friction qualities rubbing against the disc are what you feel. If you put a crap pad in a good brake system, the system will feel crap. If you put an amazing pad in a mediocre system, the system may still feel okay. Pad choice is extremely important, and a very personal thing. I wrote a small novel on the topic elsewhere.

When looking at our systems vs. other brands, things like caliper stiffness, disc material, brake line quality, etc. come into play, and all contribute to what you feel through the pedal. Between our two Competition Systems though, there's no difference...up until the point at which the smaller setup runs out of heat capacity.

[jadewbj]

Love that pick of the glowing brakes!!!!

[mobybrz]

@JRitt, pass along our thanks to Timmy for the testing work.

I was curious about one thing. I was a little surprised to see no safety wire holes or Jet Nut on the hat/disc connection. Is that something you guys have found just isn't needed when torqued properly? Are you able to provide the hat bolts and nuts drilled for wire?


AMAZING product by the way, you guys rock. Can we just start calling you JR?

[RaceTech]

[Huehuecoyotl]

@Dave-ROR
I just went back and looked at the pictures u posted, it looks like you never got em hot?

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by jadewbj

Love that pick of the glowing brakes!!!!

Thanks! We were messing around with some video on one of our burnishing machines a few years ago, and our technician got the pads so hot they caught on fire. That was a still capture from that video. The best part was that he pulled them out with gloves while they were still burning!

[jadewbj]

Originally Posted by JRitt

Thanks! We were messing around with some video on one of our burnishing machines a few years ago, and our technician got the pads so hot they caught on fire. That was a still capture from that video. The best part was that he pulled them out with gloves while they were still burning!

That is freaking awesome.

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by mobybrz

@JRitt, pass along our thanks to Timmy for the testing work.

I was curious about one thing. I was a little surprised to see no safety wire holes or Jet Nut on the hat/disc connection. Is that something you guys have found just isn't needed when torqued properly? Are you able to provide the hat bolts and nuts drilled for wire?


AMAZING product by the way, you guys rock. Can we just start calling you JR?

We use K Nuts, which are self-locking. Safety wire is a pain in the arse, and not something we want our customers fiddling with. Wiring is completely unnecessary with our systems.

Thanks for the compliment! I'm open to JR...my name keeps getting shorter. Jeff Ritter --> J Ritt --> JR. Next week I may just pull a Prince move and change my name to this symbol from our website.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by JRitt

Thanks for the compliment! I'm open to JR...my name keeps getting shorter. Jeff Ritter --> J Ritt --> JR. Next week I may just pull a Prince move and change my name to this symbol from our website.

So, Caliper, tell me, how are you doing today?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

@Dave-ROR
I just went back and looked at the pictures u posted, it looks like you never got em hot?

Define "hot".

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Define "hot".

No, perhaps I should clarify my post- "is that hot?" is what I am thinking in my head looking at the pics, most of your strips appear like you didnt use up the available range on the strips, so it didnt appear you 'got them hot' , unless I am reading it backwards? I dunno, i'm not familiar with these strips, so I'm intrigued, and asking. I guess one should be using them, so--

--are them temps you saw what you consider hot?

Just totally guessing here, if rotor temps are 400-500 caliper temps can be 300ish? Seems normal range there.

I guess hot would be rotor temps over 600F, caliper temps over 450F?
what temps do the pics show should have been my 1st post!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

No, perhaps I should clarify my post- "is that hot?" is what I am thinking in my head looking at the pics, most of your strips appear like you didnt use up the available range on the strips, so it didnt appear you 'got them hot' , unless I am reading it backwards? I dunno, i'm not familiar with these strips, so I'm intrigued, and asking. I guess one should be using them, so--

--are them temps you saw what you consider hot?

Just totally guessing here, if rotor temps are 400-500 caliper temps can be 300ish? Seems normal range there.

I guess hot would be rotor temps over 600F, caliper temps over 450F?
what temps do the pics show should have been my 1st post!

My rotor temps are ~1,050-1,150F. Caliper temps with non-full metallic pads was very low. With full metallic pads (CL RC6Es) and harder braking they were in the mid-upper 300s which is pretty warm but not hot enough yet to be a concern, not enough to boil fluid, etc.

It is enough that I'm actually considering brake ducts though, just in case..

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by Subarudood

I'm confused. The 4 piston caliper same both endurance and sprint, larger rotors being the difference. They start at 2 grand. But the 6 pistons that cost 3grand- are more for street and occasional track? I'm not trying to be rude but does that mean the only reason you guys are using a 6 piston caliper over 4 is for looks? That seems crazy given the 6 piston cost more but is a worse performer in terms of braking? I can see the 4 piston is cheaper and lighter and matched to the weight of the fr-s likely, so if the 6p don't perform better on the track what the heck? Am I missing something?

- Is there a rear kit coming or?

No worries...not being rude at all...we do have quite a few products, so it can be a bit confusing!

Essex Competition Systems vs. AP Racing Formula Big Brake Kits

You can see the differences between the Competition and Formula kits on this page. That should clarify the differences.

• The six piston Formula Kit that starts at $3k is more geared towards street and track performance. These Formula Kits are fully built in England and imported by Essex. They are indeed much more attention grabbing, and those who are interested in show as much as go love them...nothing wrong with that at all. There is also a smaller Formula front four piston setup, and a four piston rear. These fit stock wheels, and they are discussed in this thread.
• The small four piston Competition Systems discussed in this thread are a different type of product geared at track use. They are designed purely to reduce lap times, without consideration for much else. We (essex) create the kits using AP Racing components, but the implementation on the FT86 is done by us...we make the brackets, hats, use Spiegler brake lines, do all of the testing, etc.

Competition System vs. Formula Kit Performance Differences

• The large six piston kits are absolutely not worse performers in terms of braking. They are an excellent system, and would be great for any FT86 on the track or street, regardless of power level, etc. They just accomplish their objective of heat reduction in a different manner than the Competition kits. Primarily, the Formula Kit's larger disc mass allows them to absorb a great amount of heat, while the Competition Systems are built around efficiency...a classic club vs. scalpel situation.

Rear Systems

• As mentioned above, there is a rear four piston Formula Kit that will fit stock wheels. It mates up with either of the six or four piston front Formula Kits.
• At this time we have no plans to produce a rear Competition System. The OEM rear system on the car is fairly solid in terms of performance, and not overly taxed under high heat conditions. It also doesn't weigh nearly as much as the front. A good rear pad, rear SS lines, and good brake fluid are sufficient for heavy track use when mated with our front systems. We've investigated some options, and have come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be cost effective to produce in terms of a pure performance gain (which is what the Competition Systems are all about). In other words, to achieve the huge performance gains and weight reduction that we achieve on the front of the car, we would have to eliminate the parking brake, use components that aren't currently in our parts bin, and it would cost a considerable amount (more than we think the market would bear).
  • In other words, if you pay $2000-$2500 for our front system and get a hypothetical 100% improvement, you'd be paying another $2500 and only getting a 20% improvement to the car. In other words, it is a diminishing returns situation. The return on investment in the rear of the car just isn't as high in terms of pure performance.

Hopefully that clears things up a bit for you.