'17 BRZ PP vs. '11 Cayman 2.9

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Never trust manufacturer data... 718 Cayman manual weighs at least 100 lb. more, this one weighed in at 3064 lb. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...l-test-review/

I don't have a reason to not trust the official weight specs of a manufacturer and it is easy to find if these numbers are wrong. I was living 8 years in Bavaria and I can definitely say that they are not that dumb. The issue with the particular C&D car is that it had among different options the following additions:

- active damping system
- torque-vectoring system
- bigger fuel tank
- two-way power-adjustable seats

I would say that this is main problem of these cars. They offer a vast list of available options and their buyers are tended to add such extras and in most cases adding weight.

At least the BRZ is better in this area

[LancePower]

Does Porsche quote "dry weight"?

If a buyer doesn't realize that adding things to a car also adds weight, then I'm afraid I can't help them.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I don't have a reason to not trust the official weight specs of a manufacturer and it is easy to find if these numbers are wrong. I was living 8 years in Bavaria and I can definitely say that they are not that dumb.

Not saying they're dumb, just saying the official Porsche numbers are always low. This is just a fact. I'm a stickler on weight and I've noted over the years that some manufacturers give numbers quite a bit lower than reality, and beyond any variability due to optioning. Some are more realistic, and BMW tends to give numbers a bit bigger than actual curb weights.

My Cayman had next to no options and the options it had didn't add weight, literally a couple/few pounds or *ounces* at most. And it weighs more than 100 lb. over the official Porsche curb weight at a bit over 3050 lb. vs. 2936 lb. "official" weight.

This is nothing new, Ferrari weights are even more optimistic (488 Pista curb weight at the brochure: 3053 lb., actual curb weight 3308 lb.), and in the motorcycle world it can be quite ridiculous to the point that some manufacturers are just outright lying (Ducati).

At least the BRZ is better in this area

It is, at 200 to 250 lb. lighter in the real world (not 111!), and again, it feels lighter than its actual weight while the Porsche feels heavier than its actual weight.

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by ZDan

cayman in the rain at Mont Tremblant, brz at Palmer (MA)

Anyone else think the BRZ looks better than the 987.2 Cayman on the first page. Take the badges away, the 86/BRZ is a good looking car in its own right . I’m guessing I’d get a different answer on a Porsche forum.

Thanks for the good write up/comparo.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

Anyone else think the BRZ looks better than the 987.2 Cayman on the first page. Take the badges away, the 86/BRZ is a good looking car in its own right . I’m guessing I’d get a different answer on a Porsche forum.
Thanks for the good write up/comparo.

Thanks!

Very different styling between the two. The Porsche is more smoothly sculpted and kinda feline, BRZ more aggro and mechanical but with some nice curves as well. I like the design/styling of both but the Porsche is maybe a bit too soft/subtle... Only complaint about BRZ's look is I wish the rear wheels weren't shoved so far aft. Would prefer 2-seater more cab-rearward version. Which would also REALLY help with the weight distribution issue...

[TommyW]

I told my stepson I was thinking of getting a Cayman and he’s said “why? Your 86 just looks so much more badass than a stock Cayman” that got me thinking how much Id have to spend on a Cayman to reach the same level of badassery and dropped the thought

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Not saying they're dumb, just saying the official Porsche numbers are always low. This is just a fact. I'm a stickler on weight and I've noted over the years that some manufacturers give numbers quite a bit lower than reality, and beyond any variability due to optioning. Some are more realistic, and BMW tends to give numbers a bit bigger than actual curb weights.

My Cayman had next to no options and the options it had didn't add weight, literally a couple/few pounds or *ounces* at most. And it weighs more than 100 lb. over the official Porsche curb weight at a bit over 3050 lb. vs. 2936 lb. "official" weight.

This is nothing new, Ferrari weights are even more optimistic (488 Pista curb weight at the brochure: 3053 lb., actual curb weight 3308 lb.), and in the motorcycle world it can be quite ridiculous to the point that some manufacturers are just outright lying (Ducati).


It is, at 200 to 250 lb. lighter in the real world (not 111!), and again, it feels lighter than its actual weight while the Porsche feels heavier than its actual weight.

I was talking specifically about the Cayman. i don't care what BMW or other brands doing. In the place I was living maybe 1/3rd of people was driving BMWs, but I was never interested to this brand. I rented a couple of times a few of them and I was never impressed.

Back to the Caymans. I thought that your car had an LSD option. The difference is not just *ounces* comparing to an open diff. Same for the "upgraded" sport seats which are always heavier comparing to the base ones. Only if you select the carbon seat option you go lighter. It also matters if someone weights the car with a full fuel tank or 90% (which is the official DIN specification). Just the fuel detail can lead to a 12 lbs difference. Weight is a tricky topic and even small things add up and can make in total a big difference!

About the feel difference, I am not exactly sure what you mean. If you mean about acceleration numbers, the BRZ has an unusual good torque curve in low/mid RPMs which contributes to this feel. Just a 5 NM difference at 3000 RPM comparing to max torque.



On the contrary, the Cayman has a lower torque curve in low/mid RPMs with a 30 NM difference at 3000 RPM comparing to max torque.



If Cayman's curve was similar like ours up to 3000 RPM, then their owners would talk more about a torque dip

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I was talking specifically about the Cayman. i don't care what BMW or other brands doing. In the place I was living maybe 1/3rd of people was driving BMWs, but I was never interested to this brand. I rented a couple of times a few of them and I was never impressed.

The relevant fact is that some manufacturers give realistic weight numbers, and some give optimistic numbers. Porsche *always* gives optimistic, low weight numbers vs. the cars that they sell.

I thought that your car had an LSD option. The difference is not just *ounces* comparing to an open diff. Same for the "upgraded" sport seats which are always heavier comparing to the base ones.

My dude, I said "a couple/few pounds or *ounces*" for the individual options on my car. For the sport chrono, it's *ounces*. For the limited slip, I'd bet no more than 8 pounds. The lsd unit is particularly *tiny*.
Quick search => standard seats weigh 45 lb., sport seats 50 lb., so +10 lb. total here.

It also matters if someone weights the car with a full fuel tank or 90% (which is the official DIN specification). Just the fuel detail can lead to a 12 lbs difference.

10% =1.7 gal * 6.1 lb/gal = 10.2 lb fwiw...
My car's weight *after* time trial (warm-up lap, 3 timed laps, cool-down lap) at WGI was 3065 lb. with ~2 gallons burned off, so ~90% fuel. Still well over 100 lb more than the Porsche weight.

Weight is a tricky topic and even small things add up and can make in total a big difference!

No way the options on my car added more than 25 lb. total. No-options car would still be 100 lb. heavier than official Porsche curb weight. I bet...

About the feel difference, I am not exactly sure what you mean. If you mean about acceleration numbers,

I don't mean acceleration. On that point the Porsche has WAY more torque and power and accelerates much harder from any rpm than the BRZ.

I mean the Porsche feels palpably heavier in general handling feel. The BRZ feels light and sprightly in comparison. There are a lot of things that contribute to this, for sure steering wheel size and steering weight are a big part of it. Also to be fair the Porsche is so STIFF it gives kind of a bank-vault feel. Stiff is good, but Porsche tends to overkill on this point. I want my sports car to be more of a go-kart and less of a bank vault. Kind of exaggerating to make my point here but hopefully you get it.

[bfrank1972]

Another couple of points - regarding feel of power between the two, not sure if this has been discussed, but gearing can make a big difference in perceived feel (even between two cars with similar power/weight ratios).

Overall, the BRZ's shortcomings can also be its strengths. It's a lesser quality car than the Porsche - Porsche has more sound dampening, etc. . This makes for a more luxurious ride, appeals to every driver, but at the same time less visceral. The Porsche is designed to do everything well, while the FR-S/BRZ is designed specifically to be a fun drive without a premium price tag. Better engineering not always = more fun.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

No way the options on my car added more than 25 lb. total. No-options car would still be 100 lb. heavier than official Porsche curb weight. I bet...

I never said that the quoted weight is based on a no-options car. I said that most options add weight with an exception of few options (e.g. the carbon seats). The quoted weight of Porsche is the one if you add only the lightweight options. Maybe it was not clear before. Check this posting for the details:

https://rennlist.com/forums/987-981-...l#post15948743

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Another couple of points - regarding feel of power between the two, not sure if this has been discussed, but gearing can make a big difference in perceived feel (even between two cars with similar power/weight ratios).

Totally agree!

[Ernest72]

Almost got a Cayman, but got the BRZ because of a high mile commute. Still thought I might get one but you guys are practically talking me out of it.

[JIM THEO]

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't EUM and USDM Porsches different weight due to extra bars US norms require?

[AnalogMan]

To offer an opinion from a different perspective, the maintenance and repair costs for a BRZ will be significantly less than for a Porsche (especially one out of warranty). The driving experience is one thing and can be debated, and which one is ‘better’ is purely a matter of personal taste. But a Porsche is going to be much harder on the wallet than a BRZ (or probably any Japanese car).

I’ve owned well over 100 cars in over 45 years of driving (yes, I’m old, ugly too), including several Porsches (air and water cooled). Some of my favorite cars were the old-school air-cooled Porsches, of which I owned a 356, 914, and 911. They were different animals compared to the water cooled ones when it came to maintenance and repair (I also owned a 2006 Boxster S).

Porsche’s motto used to be “Excellence is expected”. Under Wendelin Wiedeking’s leadership, he changed Porsche’s mission to “be the most profitable car company in the world”. He succeeded, but the money comes from customer’s wallets. So much of the design of a contemporary Porsche is intended to make it difficult for owner service and force you to bring it to a dealer.

Particularly with a Cayman or Boxster, the engine is essentially a sealed pod, accessible from the bottom, or after removing some panels – it’s not a simple 3 second popping of the hood. For laughs, check out what it takes to change the air filter on a new 911:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWU7beZdWNY[/ame]

For the past 15 years Porsches haven’t even had oil dipsticks, only a digital display of oil level. I found out first hand how expensive that could be with my 2006 Boxster S. About 3 months after buying the car new, the digital display showed the oil level was increasing. First one quart up, then a couple of weeks later, two quarts up. If it had a dipstick I could have found out instantly myself both the actual level, and if it was contaminated. As it was, I couldn’t tell if the sensor was bad, or if gas or coolant were leaking into the crankcase. I took it to the dealer, but since it wasn’t throwing a code, they charged me $250 (in 2006) to drain the oil, measure it with a measuring cup to determine the volume, and examine it to see if it was contaminated. It turned out to be a bad sensor (that was covered under warranty), but I still had to pay for the drain and measure. After that I swore I would never again own a car without a mechanical dipstick.

I love the way the Cayman looks (gorgeous) and drives (sublime). Since at my age, I’m getting close to my final sports cars, when I was shopping for the BRZ last year I toyed with the idea of a Cayman as a possible swan song. I checked with local Porsche dealer to see how much an oil change (they call it “oil service”) would cost: $650. That sealed the deal for a BRZ, and I haven’t looked back since.

The bottom line, if you own a Porsche out of warranty, I think you need to be prepared to either be able to work on it yourself (which requires above average skills), or to pony up a LOT more money than it costs to keep a Japanese car running. As beautiful as they are and as nice as they are to drive, for me it wasn’t worth it. I would feel like a sucker every time I went to the Porsche dealer for them to vacuum out my bank account (if you really want to go directly to bankruptcy, buy a pre-2009 Porsche at risk of IMS issues).

[WolfpackS2k]

I had my 2006 Cayman S weighed on a scale at a race track back in June. With 3/4 full fuel tank it was 2998 lb. With me in car 3196 lb. The only options my car has are Sport Chrono and an AM radio antenna (so dumb).

The idea that Porsche has reduced weight with each generation of Cayman/Boxster is false if you compare apples to apples. You have to look closely to see how they come up with their numbers. For instance the 718 has a fuel tank that is 4 gallons smaller than the 981 (and 987). But don't worry, the larger fuel tank is still available as cost option...

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I don't have a reason to not trust the official weight specs of a manufacturer and it is easy to find if these numbers are wrong. I was living 8 years in Bavaria and I can definitely say that they are not that dumb. The issue with the particular C&D car is that it had among different options the following additions:

- active damping system
- torque-vectoring system
- bigger fuel tank
- two-way power-adjustable seats

I would say that this is main problem of these cars. They offer a vast list of available options and their buyers are tended to add such extras and in most cases adding weight.

At least the BRZ is better in this area

I could be wrong, but 2 way power seats are standard on every Porsche. That's not an option.

Originally Posted by LancePower

Does Porsche quote "dry weight"?

If a buyer doesn't realize that adding things to a car also adds weight, then I'm afraid I can't help them.

Porsche doesn't quote dry weight, they quote wet weight. But wet weight definitions can vary (some don't use a full tank of fuel, for instance).

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

To offer an opinion from a different perspective, the maintenance and repair costs for a BRZ will be significantly less than for a Porsche (especially one out of warranty). The driving experience is one thing and can be debated, and which one is ‘better’ is purely a matter of personal taste. But a Porsche is going to be much harder on the wallet than a BRZ (or probably any Japanese car).

I’ve owned well over 100 cars in over 45 years of driving (yes, I’m old, ugly too), including several Porsches (air and water cooled). Some of my favorite cars were the old-school air-cooled Porsches, of which I owned a 356, 914, and 911. They were different animals compared to the water cooled ones when it came to maintenance and repair (I also owned a 2006 Boxster S).

Porsche’s motto used to be “Excellence is expected”. Under Wendelin Wiedeking’s leadership, he changed Porsche’s mission to “be the most profitable car company in the world”. He succeeded, but the money comes from customer’s wallets. So much of the design of a contemporary Porsche is intended to make it difficult for owner service and force you to bring it to a dealer.

Particularly with a Cayman or Boxster, the engine is essentially a sealed pod, accessible from the bottom, or after removing some panels – it’s not a simple 3 second popping of the hood. For laughs, check out what it takes to change the air filter on a new 911:

For the past 15 years Porsches haven’t even had oil dipsticks, only a digital display of oil level. I found out first hand how expensive that could be with my 2006 Boxster S. About 3 months after buying the car new, the digital display showed the oil level was increasing. First one quart up, then a couple of weeks later, two quarts up. If it had a dipstick I could have found out instantly myself both the actual level, and if it was contaminated. As it was, I couldn’t tell if the sensor was bad, or if gas or coolant were leaking into the crankcase. I took it to the dealer, but since it wasn’t throwing a code, they charged me $250 (in 2006) to drain the oil, measure it with a measuring cup to determine the volume, and examine it to see if it was contaminated. It turned out to be a bad sensor (that was covered under warranty), but I still had to pay for the drain and measure. After that I swore I would never again own a car without a mechanical dipstick.

I love the way the Cayman looks (gorgeous) and drives (sublime). Since at my age, I’m getting close to my final sports cars, when I was shopping for the BRZ last year I toyed with the idea of a Cayman as a possible swan song. I checked with local Porsche dealer to see how much an oil change (they call it “oil service”) would cost: $650. That sealed the deal for a BRZ, and I haven’t looked back since.

The bottom line, if you own a Porsche out of warranty, I think you need to be prepared to either be able to work on it yourself (which requires above average skills), or to pony up a LOT more money than it costs to keep a Japanese car running. As beautiful as they are and as nice as they are to drive, for me it wasn’t worth it. I would feel like a sucker every time I went to the Porsche dealer for them to vacuum out my bank account (if you really want to go directly to bankruptcy, buy a pre-2009 Porsche at risk of IMS issues).

For brand new Porsches, sure I agree. For pre-turbo 911s and Caymans/Boxsters, no that is false. It is not more difficult to work on my Cayman than a BRZ. Some things are even easier (spark plugs, accessory belt, etc). But to say that the engine in a Cayman is a "pod" is criminally inaccurate.