No factory turbos for GT86 says Karl Schlicht (Toyota Motor Europe VP)

[Whitigir]

Dude...the S15 was Decade ago...are you admitting that the FR-S is Lagged Decade Behind ?

[reni]

Originally Posted by regal

What I am saying is for example the S15 was almost a new platform as much as it was revamped. Nissan dropped it from the USA in 2 years, they kept on selling them internationally.


Next time you have extra time on your hands compare the specs of an S15 (domestic) to our FRS, there's a good vs. thread and side by side they could be kissing cousins from the outside., and dimensionally they are practically identical looking at them side by side. As far as the engine, DD the the FA20 is much more like the KA24 than the SR20 (turbo.)


As far as this outselling the Miata and the Z, this car is a different category than either. Except the for few racers no one is cross shopping a Miata and an FRS, then enthusiasts are cross shopping the gen coupe. The Gen Coup has the advantage in that its profitable (capital spent long time ago/shared chases with the 4 door.)


And many are cross shopping the mustang which obviously is leaps and bounds ahead in volume. Then you even have the non-car guys cross shopping with the Fiesta and other FWD's. Toyota may see a sales cliff coming, they pay people big bucks to forecast.


This price bracket is very competitive.

The S15 was never sold officially outside of Japan. Maybe you're thinking of the S14? Which was sold during the US for its entire 4-year run.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

Dude...the S15 was Decade ago...are you admitting that the FR-S is Lagged Decade Behind ?

Cars aren't computers or arm chips in tablets. A few more airbags, DI (which has been around decades.) Lets see what else, lower COG stiffer chassis. I'll find the thread for you if you want to see. The s/13s14/15 was a nice car. But the S14/S15 and the FRZ are very similiar on paper. I doubt the average driver could tell them apart on a blind test imho. Hell the FRZ is similiar to a 70's Z for that matter.

Its not lagging behind, they were forced into the DI and airbag due to regs. The boxer/lower cog is an innovation.

Heck i want them to lag behind, I don't want a hybrid or a diesel FRZ. This car is a throwback, a swansong to the great affordable but drivers oriented Japanese cars of the last 35 years.

But besides regs and gadgets this car isn't highly advanced. Many would take a Japanese SR20DET S15 new over the FRZ in a heartbeat. They'vebeen taking S15's and rebuilding them in a japanese factory to sell, that says a lot.

The FRZ is a great platform especially to build from.

But the post I was replying to claimed the S2k was the only choice for a japanese sports car in the 2000's and I just plain disagree, I mean its totally disregarding Toyotas last sports car (MR-S) which was more of a sports car than the S2k. Especially with the the 2ZZ upgrade.

And it only lasted 4 years. Same could happen to the Scion FRS. Look at the sales numbers the Subaru ratio keeps getting bigger. If Scion goes south would Subaru continue importing the BRZ?

I've been in this industry a long time, there are bad discontinuations and there are a lot of positive surprises.

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by regal

If they make it reliable. I predicted this car would have a very poor reliability rating. Scion was near first place with most rankings but dropped to last place with the intro of the FRS. I got in an argument with someone on here who said yea JD Powers put it last place but Consumer Reports rates it high, now CR doesn't even recommend buying the car.


There are some pretty serious question marks with the stock FA20 that may not be answered for a few years which might be too late for the USA market.


IMHO part of the reason there isn't a Toyota name plate on this car domestically is because Toyota has to protect the seriously good reliability/quality rating. That's their bread and butter for the USA and a Toyota nameplate on a Subaru in the USA may cause some problems with the chiefs at Toyota.

If you trust CR to tell you what cars are reliable, then you're driving the wrong car. CR can't tell the difference between a sports car and their as....errr... elbow.

Any major issues this car has had have been fixed already in TSB's. Hardly any serious question marks about the reliability of this car in stock form. It's good.

This car IS reliable and your speculation assumes it is not, which is contrary to fact.

Whatever you're smoking, man, I want some of it.

[imag]

Originally Posted by regal

From a guy who drives a 60's Datsun this is a bit unfair. Their is plenty room and chassis capability for a little turbo action. And since there is already a factory turbo FA20T I think the no turbo mandate is not a physics or price issue. IMHO they could easily keep it under $30k with the same profit margin.

I am not sure why you quoted the joke about the V12 on that, but I will respond to your larger point. The Datsun with just over 100 hp has the least horsepower of any car I have ever owned, but it is the most fun. The 370Z had a lot of horsepower, but was a bit too heavy. So I am certainly someone who appreciates that horsepower is not all that matters.

The BRZ promises to be the perfect balance between the two: relatively light (right between the 3300 lb Z and the 2200 lb. Datsun), more horsepower, with modern chassis and a bit more daily driveability than the Datsun.

However, when I drove the BRZ, the thing that struck me was that the chassis was so good that it *deserved* a higher power option. The Datsun is fun at low power because it is so unsophisticated that it still feels thrilling. The BRZ felt, to me, a bit sedate. Part of the issue was the throttle programming; Toyota has done that annoying thing they do in all their cars, which is to put all the throttle at the top of the pedal travel. This makes people who never really use all the throttle feel like the car is powerful on a test drive. However, once you go past halfway, it made the car feel gutless.

Needless to say, I would get new throttle mapping on a BRZ/FR-S. But the takeaway to me was that the car would be brilliant with 50 more horsepower, while it fell short of thrilling with the current 200. I also have the money that I could buy a Cayman S, but don't really want to have $800/month car payments, so the reach to ~$38K would actually feel like *saving* money rather than spending it.

I agree that strategic plans usually involve a refresh at three years, and I am certain that the car will get more power at some point. I was hoping they would rush it through for 2015, because I think it would keep enthusiasm alive for the car, and because I don't feel like waiting another damned year to buy a car.

Finally, there are things I think are important that people lose sight of in the power race. To work on track with more power, the car needs real brakes and some chassis upgrades. Honestly, if they sold the tS in the US now, I would buy it and slap a supercharger on it and call it done. Those things - wheels, tires, suspension bits, brakes - are at least as important as power, and they cost a lot to retrofit in the aftermarket.

[regal]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

If you trust CR to tell you what cars are reliable, then you're driving the wrong car. CR can't tell the difference between a sports car and their as....errr... elbow.

Any major issues this car has had have been fixed already in TSB's. Hardly any serious question marks about the reliability of this car in stock form. It's good.

This car IS reliable and your speculation assumes it is not, which is contrary to fact.

Whatever you're smoking, man, I want some of it.

I don't trust any business outfits to report real reliability but many customers do and it affects sales/reputation. I work in the auto industry and the execs take this stuff very seriously. Reliability to me simply means 200k miles without a major mechanical breakdown, an entirely different discussion than how CR affects Toyota sales.

I look over the car, read the service manual. read how the mechanics work, read forums, personal experiences, or a company handles issues that don't end up on Japonlink, talk to owners, and look at half million mile clubs to make my own conclusion on reliability.

In the 80's up to OBDII Subaru made bulllet proof cars and engines. IMHO they haven't handled things right wrt the engine since. I could give you a list, like the 500 page thread on mid 2000's forester complete engine failures on their site but I'll share a link alll Subaru owners should read. This shop has seen more Subaru's than any other, people ship cars from the east coast just for them to work on their car! They know Subaru mechanics and if you read thru all of this he hints at the problem is the EPA regs are difficult for a boxer.. Anyway here is the link;

http://allwheeldriveauto.com/tag/subaru-head-gasket/

Now Crawford took the FA apart and said this is a return to the early 90's, but since he can't find anyone to tune it. Thats one reason I'm babying mine, I know the factory tune needs work but don't have a tuner I can to fix it yet. If I lived on the west coast I would have had an appointment with Delicious months ago

Not to mention that the all 2012 MY cars are stuck with the pre port injector fix calib. Thats not service from a car company that puts reliability a priority.

Eventually the tip-in knock willl be tuned out by someone and it will be shared. Thats the great things about these forums not bickering and taking issue with every written word. We are all in this together whether we like it or not.

[SirBrass]

Tip-in knock has already been tuned out by aftermarket tuners.

Any my brz might have had is gone now.

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.

[regal]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

Tip-in knock has already been tuned out by aftermarket tuners.

Any my brz might have had is gone now.

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.

@SirBrass Please list the tuners that have tuned out tip-in knock on NA cars or PM me, cause I know they all haven't.

[YEAHdams]

idc either way if they discontinue it or not. If they do, well then my 10 Series frs might go up in value, maybe. Regardless..I have one so i'm good!

[regal]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

Tip-in knock has already been tuned out by aftermarket tuners.

Any my brz might have had is gone now.

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.

Been a week with no reply. Tip-in knock is everywhere in the warranty section, look at the poor guy who's spun the rod bearing on 2 short blocks. If that doesn't point to D4-S issues I don't know what does.


Of course I am a fan of this car as it is a throwback to the old BMW's and Datsun/Nissans. But all you have to do is read the old paper writtten by Toyota to find all the problems with D4-s. Now I jumped on this car because its a modern S15 but in all honesty I would prefer a better engine. Not for HP but for durability. Someone mentioned the 240Z, that I-6 was built to last, it went out in style holding up to two turbos and 300+ factory hp.


People are adding FI to the FA20 but there have been a lot of problems, blown engines, tip-in knock, over heating. Its to early to say we have a 300chp FI formula for the FA20 that you can drive on a Florida to San diego trip.