WORKS Motorsports Turbo Kit Experience

[swarb]

Originally Posted by raven1231

When it becomes an issue then I will upgrade

Fixed it for you.
Don't forget about an oil cooler.
And please don't call it reliable when it hasn't been fully tested.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by swarb

Fixed it for you.
Don't forget about an oil cooler.
And please don't call it reliable when it hasn't been fully tested.

Not so sure about that... It also helps I don't track the car, only DD it. An oil cooler will be purchased as well anyway just for added protection.


Asks me not to call the kit reliable "since it hasn't been fully tested" (which was based on the components used), but then says it will for sure have heat issues???

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Apples and oranges, but compare the innovate intercooled vs non-intercooled.

Does this show IAT's somewhere or are you just showing the power difference?

[swarb]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Not so sure about that... It also helps I don't track the car, only DD it. An oil cooler will be purchased as well anyway just for added protection.

Asks me not to call the kit reliable "since it hasn't been fully tested" (which was based on the components used), but then says it will for sure have heat issues???

If you read the original thread... They don't provide much data. Only reassurance. Being vague does not give me confidence in their products.

I'm in the 220-230f oil temps on a stock motor, street driven. It's safe to say it is going to be hotter when you add more power.

I will also be stepping out of this thread now.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by swarb

If you read the original thread... They don't provide much data. Only reassurance. Being vague does not give me confidence in their products.

I'm in the 220-230f oil temps on a stock motor, street driven. It's safe to say it is going to be hotter when you add more power.

I will also be stepping out of this thread now.

I can appreciate that. I was actually referring to the posts provided by Moto-East and Motiva performance about their experience with the lack of heat.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by hmong337

...yet, there's a 100 page topic about "combating heat". And, everybody who is turbo is running into heat issues unless they've addressed everything.

Don't get me wrong, I like this kit WITH the a2w setup. I would never do the stage 1 though. AIT's are probably scary!

Underhood heat from a turbo kit and IAT's aren't 100% correlated like you're suggesting.

Even with an intercooler, you're still going to need to do things to keep underhood temperature down.

How much intercooler you need is a function of how much you're compressing the air more than underhood temperature.

Yes, you can get some heatsoak from a hot engine bay, but you're still going to get that heatsoak with an intercooler (over longer lengths of piping).

At the end of the day, the turbo is breathing in relatively cool air and compressing it. The compression is what drives up the IAT's. That's why you need a better intercooler with more pressure.

Would I take a car without an IC lapping on pump gas, no (e85 is possibly a different story)... but for a pure street car on low boost running e85, it's not going to be nearly as bad as you suggest.

[sw20kosh]

As long as you don't track this kit. You should be fine.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Underhood heat from a turbo kit and IAT's aren't 100% correlated like you're suggesting.

Even with an intercooler, you're still going to need to do things to keep underhood temperature down.

How much intercooler you need is a function of how much you're compressing the air more than underhood temperature.

Yes, you can get some heatsoak from a hot engine bay, but you're still going to get that heatsoak with an intercooler (over longer lengths of piping).

At the end of the day, the turbo is breathing in relatively cool air and compressing it. The compression is what drives up the IAT's. That's why you need a better intercooler with more pressure.

Would I take a car without an IC lapping on pump gas, no (e85 is possibly a different story)... but for a pure street car on low boost running e85, it's not going to be nearly as bad as you suggest.

You have a hard-on to argue with me don't you? Where did I say anything about under hood temps.

I'm not even talking about under hood temps. That's another big problem in itself regarding this car. I'm talking about the basic fundamental principles of turbocharging. Intake air temps are going to be cooking without an intercooler.

What's your point seriously? The stage one has no IC.

Have you even owned a turbo car? Don't try to tell me that a non intercooled kit is fine. Even if you have race fuel or e85, why...?! Proper intercooling is an absolute must for reliablity. Also given the characteristics of how this engine runs with a turbo, you're waiting for melted pistons to happen with no intake charge cooling. It's just all a bad idea with no IC. Not sure who you're trying to convince but you sure like to talk.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by hmong337

You have a hard-on to argue with me don't you? Where did I say anything about under hood temps.

I'm not even talking about under hood temps. That's another big problem in itself regarding this car. I'm talking about the basic fundamental principles of turbocharging. Intake air temps are going to be cooking without an intercooler.

What's your point seriously? The stage one has no IC.

Have you even owned a turbo car? Don't try to tell me that a non intercooled kit is fine. Even if you have race fuel or e85, why...?! Proper intercooling is an absolute must for reliablity. Also given the characteristics of how this engine runs with a turbo, you're waiting for melted pistons to happen with no intake charge cooling. It's just all a bad idea with no IC. Not sure who you're trying to convince but you sure like to talk.

You're joking, right? You mentioned the thread about combating heat. That thread is about engine bay and coolant heat, not IAT's.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53580

How do you know what IAT's are going to be without knowing how much boost he's running, and what turbo (where the boost target lands in the efficiency graph will affect how much heat is generated too), etc, etc, etc.

Will IAT's be lower with an IC, yes. Will they be dangerous without one, you can't possibly say without knowing way more than you know about his setup.

Don't forget about the charge cooling effects of DI, coupled with high ethanol content.

The turbo placement in their kit means less heatsoak than a front mounted one, also a factor in how much charge cooling you need.

There are lots of low boost turbo kits on many platforms that work very well without intercoolers, with good reliability. Running ~5psi is very different from even ~10psi in terms of how much heat is generated in compressing the intake charge.

Pistons don't melt from high IAT's, they melt from high combustion temps. If the tune is running safe timing for the IAT's and a good afr, the engine will run totally fine.

I'm not saying non-intercooled is ideal, or for everyone, but it's not a time bomb like you claim.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You're joking, right? You mentioned the thread about combating heat. That thread is about engine bay and coolant heat, not IAT's.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53580

How do you know what IAT's are going to be without knowing how much boost he's running, and what turbo (where the boost target lands in the efficiency graph will affect how much heat is generated too), etc, etc, etc.

Will IAT's be lower with an IC, yes. Will they be dangerous without one, you can't possibly say without knowing way more than you know about his setup.

Don't forget about the charge cooling effects of DI, coupled with high ethanol content.

The turbo placement in their kit means less heatsoak than a front mounted one, also a factor in how much charge cooling you need.

There are lots of low boost turbo kits on many platforms that work very well without intercoolers, with good reliability. Running ~5psi is very different from even ~10psi in terms of how much heat is generated in compressing the intake charge.

Pistons don't melt from high IAT's, they melt from high combustion temps. If the tune is running safe timing for the IAT's and a good afr, the engine will run totally fine.

I'm not saying non-intercooled is ideal, or for everyone, but it's not a time bomb like you claim.

His tuner mentioned no heat issues. I referred him to that thread. But I'm pointing out the no IC deal here. Everybody seems to agree that it is not good. Many have asked for AIT data including myslef to no avail. Coming from 10+ years of turbo car ownership and tinkering with a shit ton of friends and family's boosted cars, why would you even say this is okay. The first thing we all do to our boosted cars is upgrade the IC. With no IC, sure it'll run. But you're not going to be pushing much horsepower if you want reliability.

So what's the point of going turbo and dropping ~$5000 for what, a 50hp increase that blows hot air that you can't even use for extended periods. The stage one kit is as horrible as that electronic supercharger junk. That's like ordering a steak dinner and only being able to eat the sides.

Not sure what your point in arguing with me is. I will stand to say that the stage 1 setup is just not worth it. I do like the kit though. ONLY in stage 2 format. Not even sure why they'd even attempt to sell a stage 1.

A turbo kit with no IC on a car that is known to run hot is just asking for disaster. Unless you're into wanting to drop $5k for a setup that can only be used spurts at a time, run race fuel, e85, or setup a 5 gallon tank of methanol controlled by an Aquamist, by all means, go for it.

[2much]

lower temperatures are better for cars

[R3NIK]

Stage 1 does have an air/fin intercooler, it just doesn't get a fresh flow of air to it. I'd be very interested to see how much the Stage 1 "intercooler" drops IATs compared to a straight ceramic coated pipe. Then dyno again with the A2W intercooler.
Until then, all the debating in this thread is based on theoretical ideas. @WORKS didn't do a great job on their initial release thread with answering questions or providing requested data, but perhaps they can join in now.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by hmong337

So what's the point of going turbo and dropping ~$5000 for what, a 50hp increase that blows hot air that you can't even use for extended periods. The stage one kit is as horrible as that electronic supercharger junk. That's like ordering a steak dinner and only being able to eat the sides.

Not sure what your point in arguing with me is. I will stand to say that the stage 1 setup is just not worth it. I do like the kit though. ONLY in stage 2 format. Not even sure why they'd even attempt to sell a stage 1.

A turbo kit with no IC on a car that is known to run hot is just asking for disaster. Unless you're into wanting to drop $5k for a setup that can only be used spurts at a time, run race fuel, e85, or setup a 5 gallon tank of methanol controlled by an Aquamist, by all means, go for it.

You just don't get it, do you? IAT's and underhood temperatures aren't directly corellated at all. You're drawing connections that just aren't there.

It's also a $3300 kit, not $5k.

Where does the kit boost pressure land on the efficiency island? Do you even know which turbo it is (specifically, not just GT28)?

Get logs showing that IAT's are dangerous in street driving (even spirited), and I'll listen. Until then, you're just yammering on without an evidence at all.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You just don't get it, do you? IAT's and underhood temperatures aren't directly corellated at all. You're drawing connections that just aren't there.

It's also a $3300 kit, not $5k.

Where does the kit boost pressure land on the efficiency island? Do you even know which turbo it is (specifically, not just GT28)?

Get logs showing that IAT's are dangerous in street driving (even spirited), and I'll listen. Until then, you're just yammering on without an evidence at all.

Heatsoak? Have you heard....?

Heatsoak city is what this kit is as-is. You sure love it. Lol Have fun making your tiny HP gain for $$$- if you haven't clued in yet! Hairdryer setup on peanut boost because our engines are fragile to boost with a high 12.5:1 built orginally for NA.

I see this kit as used only for dyno pulls and quick spuirts for the stage 1. I dare you to do a full lapping session in that car even if it makes tiny boost safely. Obviously, they're using a tiny ass turbo. Csg asked for tested data and received none. I asked, received none. What are you trying to prove? That this kit is "barely good enough"? Lol. You obvious missed the boat since 2003.

Is this your first sports car? Stop dodging this question ahaha.

Oh and the kit (system) really is ~$5000 if you factor in ALL supporting heat mods like turbo blankets, oil coolers, vented hood, bigger rad, and so on.

I don't know about you but I'd get something else. OR...................

Back to the OP:

If you get this kit, please do it right and get it all with the a2w setup. TRUST ME!

Add ice and stick all the water intercooler system in the rear (weight distribution ahaha) 1.5 gallon resevior in the trunk. A2W rad up front.

It'd be a waste to do it the barest bone setup THEN all that money into tuning . Later on, adding the intercooler and having to retune again. No?