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Old 06-28-2015, 11:57 PM   #15
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At least in USA, a 'cheap' engine swap is possible. Just swap in a 6.0L & T56 from the late model GTO. It fits, hood closes, oil pan clears, shifter is in right location. There's one on ebay for $6500. Use the money from the sale of the FA20 for any other pieces you need, mounts, ECU, fuel hoses, driveshaft, etc.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:04 AM   #16
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You could run a can bus monitor and see what messages the oem system is sending to reverse engineer the system. You might have to gather some info for arbitrary id.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:00 AM   #17
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what if i swap 3uz and connect swap ecu with fa20 ecus with CANBUS
do you guys think it can hear each other?


or if i use OP2 or ecutek to take off the cel code ?? is it work?
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:36 PM   #18
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I was planning on decoding the can bus and have the ecu manufacturer write a new firmware with the information I suplied for a swap. The customer suplied the ecu, they wanted probably around $2500 usd for the firmware to integrate the ecu. Good luck with your plan and hope you get it worked out as it will help others later down the line.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:03 PM   #19
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I've done considerable research into this topic. When you get passed all of the hardware and wiring requirements, this is the first step in what it's going to take to seamlessly integrate the two CANBUS networks.

You will need to reflash the stock FRS/BRZ ECU and change the CAN lookup table. Change CANID 0x141 to 0x142. Then, have your controller listen for 0x142, read the values, change what you need (such as putting the LS engine RPM from the LS PCM in the correct byte), and rebroadcast your modified byte string on 0x141.

This will make sure no other components are listening to the Suby ECU except your controller. Your controller will broadcast on 0x141 and fool the entire network.

Rinse and repeat for any other IDs you need.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acree View Post
I've done considerable research into this topic. When you get passed all of the hardware and wiring requirements, this is the first step in what it's going to take to seamlessly integrate the two CANBUS networks.

You will need to reflash the stock FRS/BRZ ECU and change the CAN lookup table. Change CANID 0x141 to 0x142. Then, have your controller listen for 0x142, read the values, change what you need (such as putting the LS engine RPM from the LS PCM in the correct byte), and rebroadcast your modified byte string on 0x141.

This will make sure no other components are listening to the Suby ECU except your controller. Your controller will broadcast on 0x141 and fool the entire network.

Rinse and repeat for any other IDs you need.
What does the Zx6 ECU do that we need to keep it?
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:19 PM   #21
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There are numerous values the main ECU spits out on to the CANBUS that other control modules rely on. I was never able to fully map the CAN IDs but I think it would be almost impossible to synthesize all of them.
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Old 07-01-2015, 05:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manji View Post
Couple of things that stand out here already.
Ok, fair points. Let me address them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manji View Post
Comment I saw about not wanting to spend money on a motec, because it will double the cost of the swap. All I'll say here is that you are biting of more than you can chew if you think the rest of the swap will be done for $6.5k. You can itemise and forum mechanic it all you like, but if you want my advice, double that budget; at least.

Another thing I noticed, "I'm going to blow my fa20 up and then do this". This mentality has never made sense to me. Why not sell it while its worth money? I sold my fa20, gearbox, and turbo kit for $12k. Sure I realise this is because I'm in NZ and was the only person to have these parts for sale, and I had to wait a year for someone to blow their motor and need mine, but point is still valid.
I'm being sarcastic. Sarcasm is hard to broadcast effectively on a forum. Yes, I plan to take good care of my engine/trans/turbo and sell it if I swap, but not until I have all the basic swap hardware here, engine fitment mocked up, and enough extra cash lying around to deal with fabrication and at least some additional unanticipated costs. This helps to assure that I won't be selling a half completed swap and a pile of broken dreams in 18 months, after wasting heaps of unrecoverable money. This means sorting out the CAN solution first before anything else is ordered.

Quote:
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Either way, not knocking what you are trying to do. 10 years ago in my 20's I was looking to DIY all the things with car projects. Now I'm a little older, a little wiser, and a lot busier with work to even entertain this type of thing. The effort in doing so is better spent at work, earning money, so I can pay others to do a better job than I could ever do.

It's one of those things, I paid for the motec (I also paid well less than $6.5k, though we get a much better deal on them here) because it was the only option that worked. I could've waited 5 years for guys like yourself to have sorted a way to do it (as you are trying to now) for next to nothing. But I accepted I paid early adopter tax.
I understand that. For me, half the fun is doing it myself, and my job gives me plenty of free time to work with. For me, your 10 years ago is now. I doubt I'll have the patience in my 30's either.

That said, would you care to share what you did spend on your Motec? because your only other comment on the issue was a vague "9k on Motec, wiring, and sensors" in another thread.

Also, I can get the box cheaper, as the Pontiac Solstice transmission is externally identical to the R154 and bolts right up to r154 bellhousing. Small issue with input shaft being too long can be solved with a 1" spacer. And the shifter is already far enough back on the Pontiac derivative.

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FWIW, I approached Link (they are based here) about whether they wanted to write a gt86 canbus platform and use my car to do so (of course I was still going to pay, but I already have a Link in my racecar and was familiar with them). To my surprise they weren't even slightly interested and didn't believe there was enough of a market there. (Which in NZ is true, Christchurch has 400,000 people and I'm the only one do have done anything major like forced induction or motor swap) but they clearly have not realised the popularity of the car internationally.
I've approached a LiNK dealer in the US, perhaps noise coming from this side of the pond will change their minds. If not, I'm looking at DIY solutions with megasquirt. Failing that, I'll take the plunge and buy a god damn Motec. Half the motivation here is my personal swap, but the other half is attempting to make engine swaps, and accurate information about them, more accessible to other people who want to swap too. I actually got my motivation from your swap. ...and the Vorshlag thread It would be cheaper and easier to just wait for kits like Vorshlag, but I want to do something unique, and I'm willing to pay the early adopter tax in both time and money, just like everybody with a blown boosted FA20 or blown 4th gear has paid the early adopter tax on the FRS / BRZ platform.

Anyway, this whole idea came from curiosity about how hard the CAN BUS stuff really is. People have had success driving CAN gauges with megasquirt on their own, can bus sniffing and broadcasting devices are cheap. (see CAN BUS Triple.) Also, digging through the wiring diagrams, it seems like most of the essential CAN functions are done by other devices, such as the main body ECU, and the engine ECM does very little can-related stuff. (It initially seems that way, I could be wrong, but that's what this thread is FOR!!!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by modernbeat View Post
I'm doing the programming to make a third party ECM talk to the OEM ECM to make swaps easier. We'll debut it on Rick's V8 swap.
Any chance I could bother you for some more detailed information on making this happen? When/if you're comfortable doing that. By the way I've been following the Vorshlag build religiously, and I think I account for at least half the youtube views just kidding, but I've watched the first fire/this weeks's over and over and over.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Acree View Post
I've done considerable research into this topic. When you get passed all of the hardware and wiring requirements, this is the first step in what it's going to take to seamlessly integrate the two CANBUS networks.

You will need to reflash the stock FRS/BRZ ECU and change the CAN lookup table. Change CANID 0x141 to 0x142. Then, have your controller listen for 0x142, read the values, change what you need (such as putting the LS engine RPM from the LS PCM in the correct byte), and rebroadcast your modified byte string on 0x141.

This will make sure no other components are listening to the Suby ECU except your controller. Your controller will broadcast on 0x141 and fool the entire network.

Rinse and repeat for any other IDs you need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acree View Post
There are numerous values the main ECU spits out on to the CANBUS that other control modules rely on. I was never able to fully map the CAN IDs but I think it would be almost impossible to synthesize all of them.
This kind of information is why I started this thread. Thank you. It can't be that hard - Hydra and Motec both have fully mapped CAN solutions already.
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Old 07-02-2015, 12:39 PM   #23
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Some more information that was requested via PM. Figured I would share it here. I was never able to spend a lot of time on CANBUS discovery, but it should help some.

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Old 07-02-2015, 12:40 PM   #24
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For anyone doing CANBUS work, as a rule of thumb, listening to the bus for the information you need is ALWAYS better than requesting it. And chances are, the information you need is already being broadcast.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:13 AM   #25
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Our Synergy powered V8 car uses a package that we worked with Motec to develop. We can run pretty much any port injected engine in the 86 / BRZ platform with all gauges, power steering, fuel pump working as factory. Currently we are working on a Lexus V8 and a Toyota V6 installation.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/06/...y-at-11600rpm/
http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/01/...ynergy-brz-v8/

Have no idea where the USD6,500 price comes from. Would be under USD4,000 including the adapter loom to go between the M150 and the original factory OEM ECU connector.
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Old 07-09-2015, 11:02 AM   #26
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Love the Synergy BRZ! <3
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Old 07-09-2015, 11:04 AM   #27
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Our Synergy powered V8 car uses a package that we worked with Motec to develop. We can run pretty much any port injected engine in the 86 / BRZ platform with all gauges, power steering, fuel pump working as factory. Currently we are working on a Lexus V8 and a Toyota V6 installation.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/06/...y-at-11600rpm/
http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/01/...ynergy-brz-v8/

Have no idea where the USD6,500 price comes from. Would be under USD4,000 including the adapter loom to go between the M150 and the original factory OEM ECU connector.
Thanks, I'll update that if I can get an accurate price. Problem with Motec for one-off swaps is, I was under the impression that while they support the GT86 CAN, you have to buy a build package or development license ($$$) if you're going to swap engines. If that is incorrect or not completely accurate, please correct me. Are either of those swaps you mentioned going to be available as a package or kit?

Please feel free to correct any of the following statements as well: "Under 4000" is still a lot of money, considering many other aftermarket ECU's with CAN connections sell for under $2000. The patch loom is great and all, but anyone swapping is going to have to wire up the new engine as well, which would involve another patch loom and adapted harness on the engine side. I was under the impression that re-pinning the few factory wires that need to be kept to the new ECU plug, wiring in the engine, and stripping out any unnecessary factory wires was a much cleaner way to do it.
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:42 PM   #28
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No development license is required. We have our own partner package so the package to run what we call the 86 Engine Swap costs the same as Motec's standard Toyota 86 package. Synergy used the 86 Engine Swap package on both those cars. They sell it as part of a complete kit with their engine and all the other parts to get their engine into the car. When Jun got their kit, their original engine was out of the car and they were driving down the road with their Synergy engine installed 8 hours later. Not a single hole drilled in the chassis or any cutting or welding.

For the wiring in those cars we used the connectors off the factory engine looms. The standard engine has so many inputs and outputs (8 injectors, 4 x cam control, 4 x cam sensors etc) that between the two connectors you have enough pins to wire most engines. We used an adapter loom between the Motec ECU and the factory ECU connector then made our own engine loom using the two connectors off the factory engine loom (54-way and 8-way).

Yes there are plenty of other ECUs selling on the market for USD2,000 but the two missing factors are how configurable the ECUs CAN-bus is (I have not seen a $2,000 ECU which lets you put timers on the CAN-bus) and do you have the time and resources to reverse engineer the OEM CAN-bus? Also, who many ECUs have enough pins to do what you want to do?

If you are building a race car and gutting the car, then yes, make new wiring looms. If the car is going to be used on the road and you want everything to work as per factory then I felt the adapter looms were the right way to go.

I hope this answers your questions.
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