The All-New GR Corolla World Premiere April 1, 2022

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

so i keep seeing vague references, lets just put it out there...

seems a lot of you agree that enthusiasts never have enough money, as all these performance vehicles are "priced outside of an enthusiasts range", so therefore, people that have money and can afford it, cannot be enthusiasts?

They can be enthusiasts, but enthusiasm for sports cars tends to fade with age, which is where the money tends to be for unpractical, second-vehicle, sports cars. The average age of Corvette owners, for instance, went from 54 to 61 over ten years, and this is a trend we are seeing more across all cars. If a manufacturer has a choice of what type of sporty car to build then an older demographic of car enthusiast might favor a sports sedan or GT car over a low and cramped sports car. They might desire an automatic over a manual. They might appreciate a quieter, safer and softer ride than a lighter, louder and rougher ride, so manufacturers might do adaptive suspension, sound deadening and quieter exhausts at the expense of weight. Age and money tends to make people’s tastes more toned down, so colors won’t be as loud, wings will be smaller, the cars might be less aggressively styled, etc, so a premium sports sedan appeals more to the older enthusiast than a Miata, Elise or 86.

Again, enthusiasts can have money, but the majority of enthusiasts don’t and just dream of owning a sports car or having the ability to buy something impractical that might be a secondary vehicle. Older people can like enthusiast cars, but most grow out of the typical characteristics we consider descriptive of enthusiast cars, as described above. The older demographic is influencing the nature of all vehicles, but especially sporty vehicles more than enthusiasts.

[fredzy]

^^Thanks for making that point, it’s basically what I was getting at with ribbing on the GRC as mostly unobtainable. I think it can unlock good things for the future though for sure - something more like a WRX that late 20’s me (who would have lost it over the thing) would have actually been able to aspire to.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They can be enthusiasts, but enthusiasm for sports cars tends to fade with age, which is where the money tends to be for unpractical, second-vehicle, sports cars. The average age of Corvette owners, for instance, went from 54 to 61 over ten years, and this is a trend we are seeing more across all cars. If a manufacturer has a choice of what type of sporty car to build then an older demographic of car enthusiast might favor a sports sedan or GT car over a low and cramped sports car. They might desire an automatic over a manual. They might appreciate a quieter, safer and softer ride than a lighter, louder and rougher ride, so manufacturers might do adaptive suspension, sound deadening and quieter exhausts at the expense of weight. Age and money tends to make people’s tastes more toned down, so colors won’t be as loud, wings will be smaller, the cars might be less aggressively styled, etc, so a premium sports sedan appeals more to the older enthusiast than a Miata, Elise or 86.

Again, enthusiasts can have money, but the majority of enthusiasts don’t and just dream of owning a sports car or having the ability to buy something impractical that might be a secondary vehicle. Older people can like enthusiast cars, but most grow out of the typical characteristics we consider descriptive of enthusiast cars, as described above. The older demographic is influencing the nature of all vehicles, but especially sporty vehicles more than enthusiasts.

friggin boomers still screwing things up.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They can be enthusiasts, but enthusiasm for sports cars tends to fade with age, which is where the money tends to be for unpractical, second-vehicle, sports cars. The average age of Corvette owners, for instance, went from 54 to 61 over ten years, and this is a trend we are seeing more across all cars. If a manufacturer has a choice of what type of sporty car to build then an older demographic of car enthusiast might favor a sports sedan or GT car over a low and cramped sports car. They might desire an automatic over a manual. They might appreciate a quieter, safer and softer ride than a lighter, louder and rougher ride, so manufacturers might do adaptive suspension, sound deadening and quieter exhausts at the expense of weight. Age and money tends to make people’s tastes more toned down, so colors won’t be as loud, wings will be smaller, the cars might be less aggressively styled, etc, so a premium sports sedan appeals more to the older enthusiast than a Miata, Elise or 86.

Again, enthusiasts can have money, but the majority of enthusiasts don’t and just dream of owning a sports car or having the ability to buy something impractical that might be a secondary vehicle. Older people can like enthusiast cars, but most grow out of the typical characteristics we consider descriptive of enthusiast cars, as described above. The older demographic is influencing the nature of all vehicles, but especially sporty vehicles more than enthusiasts.

Totally disagree. People do not lose their "enthusiast" status because they get older. A few things do happen that make it appear that way though.

They can afford and do buy all those expensive sports cars out there. As you said Corvettes have an average age of buyer that is way up there. Same with all your other higher end cars that people like to ignore when lamenting the lack of sports cars. Also many of them buy the less costly cars to use as a daily driver and are very happy with the stock set up so don't make a lot of ricy mods. People would be surprised and the average age of buyers for things like the STi, Evo (when it existed) and even the CTR. It is not "young" guys buying these cars new since they simply can't afford them. If the car companies only built for the under 40 crowd there would likely be NO affordable cars worth buying out there. As far as big wings and subdued clolour go I think you will find the old guys are more than happy to have a big wing IF IT ACTUALLY SERVES A PURPOSE and the bright colours are almost always the choice. White, grey and black are usually the kiddies choices.

They don't generally hang out at meets, on forums or social media. This is a biggy! The perception of affordable sport cars being the realm of the young is more a matter of visibility than reality. Back in 2014, before there were many used ones available, and while all the 18 year olds were crying the blues about the lack of "affordable" "enthusiast" cars this forum was dominated by the 45+ crowd. People just didn't know it. The majority of the younger crowd didn't show up until cheap used ones started to hit the market. Since what is "affordable" is subjective the people crying about not getting a $30,000, limited production specialty car probably can't get new it no matter what the price. The only voice they want to hear though is the people in the same boat as them and their battle cry is "I want it cheap and I want it NOW so the company should make more so I can have it". Meanwhile the older crowd is just walking in, buying them and keeping quite. Because they CAN.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by soundman98

friggin boomers still screwing things up.

And the following generations wouldn't have SHIT if the Boomers hadn't made it for them.

[soundman98]

oh, i'm a millennial. as per the media, i've been royally screwing up the entire workplace sector since before i could work, because i want to live at home, don't want to work, don't want to own a car, don't want a house, and desire to live in the big obnoxious city, packed in like sardines...

i'm waiting for the media to get bored with russia and somehow spin the entire ukrainian war to be my generations fault as well...

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by kmbkk

Wait, where do we find our place in the First 86 line?!?! I somehow missed that.

Sorry, I was at the beach last week, in my Suburban (literally)...

A good portion of the "bling" was numbered, and mine happens to be number 3. Not sure about exact delivery number though. pekingduck was first. I got mine a couple of days afterwards.

There is a list of the First86 on here somewhere that has the list order.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Someone should start a business where you can use other vehicles, at a daily rate, when you need more space. Sounds like a good business venture.

It's not cost efficient, at least for us. I paid $11,000 for the 2004 Suburban in 2012. During that time, it's had about $3,000 in standard and emergency maintenance.

We have made this, and similar week long trips, off the top of my head, 60 times during that 10 years. I also use it at least every other weekend to haul something from somewhere to somewhere else that would not fit in our Mustang or the 86.

Factor in the time eaten up dealing with rental agencies, worrying about dings and dents, etc (or paying the extra fees) I think I'm doing OK.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

It's not cost efficient, at least for us. I paid $11,000 for the 2004 Suburban in 2012. During that time, it's had about $3,000 in standard and emergency maintenance.

We have made this, and similar week long trips, off the top of my head, 60 times during that 10 years. I also use it at least every other weekend to haul something from somewhere to somewhere else that would not fit in our Mustang or the 86.

Factor in the time eaten up dealing with rental agencies, worrying about dings and dents, etc (or paying the extra fees) I think I'm doing OK.

+1.

i'd rather buy a truck for $40k than deal with rental agencies/contracts.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/45100/...er-stolen-cars

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Totally disagree. People do not lose their "enthusiast" status because they get older. A few things do happen that make it appear that way though.

They can afford and do buy all those expensive sports cars out there. As you said Corvettes have an average age of buyer that is way up there. Same with all your other higher end cars that people like to ignore when lamenting the lack of sports cars. Also many of them buy the less costly cars to use as a daily driver and are very happy with the stock set up so don't make a lot of ricy mods. People would be surprised and the average age of buyers for things like the STi, Evo (when it existed) and even the CTR. It is not "young" guys buying these cars new since they simply can't afford them. If the car companies only built for the under 40 crowd there would likely be NO affordable cars worth buying out there. As far as big wings and subdued clolour go I think you will find the old guys are more than happy to have a big wing IF IT ACTUALLY SERVES A PURPOSE and the bright colours are almost always the choice. White, grey and black are usually the kiddies choices.

They don't generally hang out at meets, on forums or social media. This is a biggy! The perception of affordable sport cars being the realm of the young is more a matter of visibility than reality. Back in 2014, before there were many used ones available, and while all the 18 year olds were crying the blues about the lack of "affordable" "enthusiast" cars this forum was dominated by the 45+ crowd. People just didn't know it. The majority of the younger crowd didn't show up until cheap used ones started to hit the market. Since what is "affordable" is subjective the people crying about not getting a $30,000, limited production specialty car probably can't get new it no matter what the price. The only voice they want to hear though is the people in the same boat as them and their battle cry is "I want it cheap and I want it NOW so the company should make more so I can have it". Meanwhile the older crowd is just walking in, buying them and keeping quite. Because they CAN.

I bet many of these people who are older who buy CTRs are buying them for their teenager. That probably throws off these stats a little.

I do agree that part of the problem is the visibility. Many of these 61+ Corvette owners put 1000 miles a year driving the car to cars-n-coffee every other Sunday--not the best visibility. At least they are better than the GT3 RS enthusiasts who have their cars sitting in their car museums afraid that it might depreciate or that it could get a scratch because that might ruin their car art.

I tend to think of enthusiasts as those who drive their cars and who drive enthusiast cars. Enthusiast cars tend to be a little more race car on the spectrum, yet fast lap times aren't a requirement. You know: light weight, loud, fast, great handling, manual, responsive, communicative, impractical, etc. More Lotus than 911. More Miata than Civic. More 86 than Supra. Premium and luxury sporty vehicles tend to cater to older buyers with more refined tastes, so steering is more numb and less communicative; the ride is softer, the car is quieter, the manual is changed out for an auto, they add luxuries and unnecessary features, etc. In every way the sporty cars become less and less enthusiast cars and more just powerful cars that resemble race/sporty cars. Meanwhile, the younger drivers are trying to turn their cheap economy cars into sports cars by gutting them, slamming them, throwing on turbo kits and aero. I have never seen a 75 year old driving a slammed anything. I've seen a few cruising at 60mph in the slow lane on the highway or posing next to something expensive. The hardcore enthusiasts that never age out of a raw, manual, sports car are few and far between.

This is true in the motorcycle market as well. Motorcycles are far cheaper and depreciate much faster, so the demographics represent enthusiasts far closer than cars. Here is a distribution of data on non-fatal crashes, and the distribution typically shows more riders who are young, and the bike styles show preferences that tend to be more aggressive for younger riders and less leisure or comfortable than the bikes of older riders. They are all motorcycle enthusiasts, but one is riding a sofa on wheels, an amputated Camry, and the other is riding something I would consider far more approximate to motorsports and closer to the description of an enthusiast bike: light weight, great handling, powerful, connected, raw, loud, etc.




Again, as the average buyer gets older and older, manufactures will either make cars more palatable to older demographics, or they will make them safer and more parent-approved for those who are shopping for their teens. The number of 55 year old Ken Blocks are far less than the number of 25 year old Ken Blocks, but there are probably far more 55 year old Ken Blocks who can afford what manufactures have to offer. It is what it is. The supply doesn't match the demand, but manufacturers aren't really incentivized to meet the demand. I get that. Enthusiasts have to deal with dealer markups, lower volume so higher costs, limited options, etc. It is what it is. It isn't going to change.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

It's not cost efficient, at least for us. I paid $11,000 for the 2004 Suburban in 2012. During that time, it's had about $3,000 in standard and emergency maintenance.

We have made this, and similar week long trips, off the top of my head, 60 times during that 10 years. I also use it at least every other weekend to haul something from somewhere to somewhere else that would not fit in our Mustang or the 86.

Factor in the time eaten up dealing with rental agencies, worrying about dings and dents, etc (or paying the extra fees) I think I'm doing OK.

Um, that’s one way to put words in my mouth I suppose.

I average about one-two instances per year where I need something larger then a 86/sedan/hatch this includes moving house several times over the past 15 years, week long trips, moving 2-5 people (I did LA to SF with three people in my 86 once, took 4 people to Thunderhill), helping other people move, no idea how many times I’ve tossed my bike in the back of my 86 etc.

Hope you got the six disc cd changer in the Burban.




I’m lucky I can borrow a 4-door f150 truck in the family, even with super easy and free access (i have a set of keys to it, it’s 25 minutes from my work) I don’t use it more then 1-2x per year.

And wagons are the way, I would never need a truck except for moving homes if I had a quality full sized station wagon.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Um, that’s one way to put words in my mouth I suppose....
Hope you got the six disc cd changer in the Burban.

Didn't meant to put words in your mouth, I totally get my situation is a bit unique in terms of large vehicle usage. I doubt I'll replace the Suburban when it comes time with a similar vehicle, unless it's an EV.

Oh and I definitely got the 6-disc cd changer. In fact the one I bought had every option available except the 4-wheel steering. The CD changer is in a box in the basement because I upgraded to a Pioneer AVIC unit that allowed me to add a backup camera (absolute necessity) and an SD card that holds our entire music library, although we primarily stream stuff these days.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

And wagons are the way, I would never need a truck except for moving homes if I had a quality full sized station wagon.

Absolutely agree with this, the problem is finding a modern one I'm willing to drive. Last one was the CTS-V, but those are unicorn prices now thanks to BaT and other sites.

[WolfpackS2k]

A CTS-V wagon is not a "mid-size" wagon, haha. Have you seen how small the trunk/cargo area is?

[Yoshoobaroo]

I hate how we don’t get the good wagons. BMW is typical for this.

For over 20 years now it’s been like this:

BMW: Americans don’t want wagons.
Customer: Actually we do!
BMW: Oh here’s the wagon you wanted
Customer: oh cool, can I get the bigger engine in it?
BMW: oh no the base engine will do for the wagon in the American market..
Customer: ok at least I can still get a RWD wagon.
BMW: actually all the US wagons are AWD, you don’t want RWD.
Customer: can I get a manual at least?
BMW: Why? No auto only on the wagon.
Customer: Ok I’ll pass then, I wanted the big engine with a manual in RWD.
BMW: See?! The Americans don’t want wagons!