Video: Toyota GR86 SPIED for the First Time!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

As has been pointed out by others and discussed elsewhere, it's not Subaru concerned about losing WRX sales that keeps a turbo off the BRZ. It's Toyota who doesn't want to jeopardize Supra sales that will keep it from happening.

This is now doubly true with the launch of the 4 cylinder Supra. With the base Supra having a 2.0 liter 255 hp engine - and $43,945 base price - a BRZ/86 with a 2.4 liter 260-ish hp engine for a possible low-mid $30k's price would encroach too closely on the Supra market. While some people might still spend $10k more for the 'Supra' name, I suspect most buyers would opt to spend $10k less and get similar (if not better) performance, as well as the possibility of a manual transmission (and likely superior Japanese vs German reliability).

Toyota owns 17% of Subaru, and like the first-gen car, is probably putting up around half of the cost of developing the second-gen car. Toyota is also about ten times bigger than Subaru in terms of revenues and market share. That gives them enough clout to essentially call the shots. Even if Subaru wanted to give the BRZ/86 a turbo engine, I can't see Toyota allowing that out of their fear for cannibalizing Supra sales. Even though it's made by (and bought from) BMW, the 'Supra' name is Toyota's own, a legacy to its past legendary sports car (and with the higher price, probably more profitable).

Even though Toyota is likely the reason for no turbo on the BRZ/86, we still owe them a debt of thanks. Without Toyota, there almost certainly would never have been either a first generation BRZ/86 nor the second generation car. Subaru is too small of a manufacturer to have undertaken the development of such a car, with its RWD platform, on its own.

But the thing about dancing with an 800 pound gorilla is, you dance to the tune the gorilla calls, and you're finished dancing when the gorilla says you are.

I highly doubt that cannibalizing WRX or Supra sales is high on the reason list for either company. As pointed out before both those cars are focused on a different demographic and although there may be some overlap (especially on forums) it isn't like everybody interested in either already owns an 86. It is pretty presumptuous of people that like the 86 to think that those interested in the Supra or WRX give a rat's ass about it.
I believe the reality of the lack of turbo is much more simple than people think. Toyota wanted an entry level NA sports car. They built an entry level NA sports car. They are not going to give everybody a sports car at an entry level price point and super car performance levels. No hidden agendas, politics, secret market protection nor dancing gorillas need to be included.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Toyota wanted an entry level NA sports car. They built an entry level NA sports car.

You're absolutely right. With a NA engine and lower price (and less power and slower performance than the Supra), the BRZ/86 is exactly that. An entry level inexpensive sports car.

With a turbo, a $10k+ higher price, and power and performance similar to the Supra, it's no longer an entry level sports car. Then it would be an alternative to the Supra, a quasi-peer, and Toyota wouldn't want to divide the market for an upscale sports car between two cars (because it wouldn't make as much money as leaving it all to one car). With a NA engine the BRZ/86 are in a different market segment than the Supra. With a turbo, they would be too close to each other.

Toyota is a highly financially driven company. Decisions are all about the business case. A turbo BRZ (or even turbo option) might be great for Subaru, but it wouldn't make business sense for Toyota.

The 800 lb gorilla usually gets what it wants.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Again, at that price point why not just take a Supra?

For the same reason people who buy a top of the line Camaro for >$75,000 don't just by a Corvette, they want the Camaro.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

You're absolutely right. With a NA engine and lower price (and less power and slower performance than the Supra), the BRZ/86 is exactly that. An entry level inexpensive sports car.

With a turbo, a $10k+ higher price, and power and performance similar to the Supra, it's no longer an entry level sports car. Then it would be an alternative to the Supra, a quasi-peer, and Toyota wouldn't want to divide the market for an upscale sports car between two cars (because it wouldn't make as much money as leaving it all to one car). With a NA engine the BRZ/86 are in a different market segment than the Supra. With a turbo, they would be too close to each other.

Toyota is a highly financially driven company. Decisions are all about the business case. A turbo BRZ (or even turbo option) might be great for Subaru, but it wouldn't make business sense for Toyota.

The 800 lb gorilla usually gets what it wants.

Neither of these is a profit margin vehicle. Either way they make a sale even if 86 was the same performance and trim quality.
No doubt that maintaining the distinction between the two is one of a long list of reasons to keep it NA but it is not likely to be near the top.

[nikitopo]

Toyota wanted at the beginning a NA engine, but at some point of time they changed their mind. Then they found a resistance from Subaru to go with an FI engine. They were even saying that they might get a turbo from Subaru when they'll increase their percentage share. Meaning that they couldn't control them. Sure they could put an FI engine themselves, but it wouldn't be a boxer engine. These were internal rumors, that no one will admit officially. So you can accept this with a grain of salt ...

Same reason that they are saying now that the 2nd generation is more a work of Subaru ...

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

As has been pointed out by others and discussed elsewhere, it's not Subaru concerned about losing WRX sales that keeps a turbo off the BRZ. It's Toyota who doesn't want to jeopardize Supra sales that will keep it from happening.

This is now doubly true with the launch of the 4 cylinder Supra. With the base Supra having a 2.0 liter 255 hp engine - and $43,945 base price - a BRZ/86 with a 2.4 liter 260-ish hp engine for a possible low-mid $30k's price would encroach too closely on the Supra market. While some people might still spend $10k more for the 'Supra' name, I suspect most buyers would opt to spend $10k less and get similar (if not better) performance, as well as the possibility of a manual transmission (and likely superior Japanese vs German reliability).

Toyota owns 17% of Subaru, and like the first-gen car, is probably putting up around half of the cost of developing the second-gen car. Toyota is also about ten times bigger than Subaru in terms of revenues and market share. That gives them enough clout to essentially call the shots. Even if Subaru wanted to give the BRZ/86 a turbo engine, I can't see Toyota allowing that out of their fear for cannibalizing Supra sales. Even though it's made by (and bought from) BMW, the 'Supra' name is Toyota's own, a legacy to its past legendary sports car (and with the higher price, probably more profitable).

Even though Toyota is likely the reason for no turbo on the BRZ/86, we still owe them a debt of thanks. Without Toyota, there almost certainly would never have been either a first generation BRZ/86 nor the second generation car. Subaru is too small of a manufacturer to have undertaken the development of such a car, with its RWD platform, on its own.

But the thing about dancing with an 800 pound gorilla is, you dance to the tune the gorilla calls, and you're finished dancing when the gorilla says you are.

I get what you're saying, but Toyota didn't seem the slightest bit concerned about "sibling rivalry" back when they sold the Celica, MR2 and Supra all at the same time. Each of those cars had 2 engine options (more in the case of the Celica) and heavy performance overlap. So I don't see why it should matter now. And going back to Subaru, if any rumors of a decent hp boost for the next gen WRX/STI are true, then that would create plenty of room for a turbo BRZ in the performance hierarchy.

Backing up even further into the conversation, I don't think Porsche "got a pass" with calling the 718 an all new model. Personally, I think its pretty dumb and so do a lot of other Porsche owners. The 718 is not a 982, its really a 981.2. But for some reason Porsche insists on the change. To that end though, you can't slam them for it and compare to a supposed 2nd gen BRZ that's only slightly revised, b/c the power figures for the 718 went up a LOT over the 981, specifically torque.

Of course, its a question of how you want to "sell your soul". Most Porsche faithful hate the turbo 4s and don't care that they have more torque than the previous flat 6s. That Porsche is adding the 6 back into more and more 718s (despite almost no torque gain) should be pretty telling.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I get what you're saying, but Toyota didn't seem the slightest bit concerned about "sibling rivalry" back when they sold the Celica, MR2 and Supra all at the same time. Each of those cars had 2 engine options (more in the case of the Celica) and heavy performance overlap. So I don't see why it should matter more. And going back to Subaru, if any rumors of a decent hp boost for the next gen WRX/STI are true, then that would create plenty of room for a turbo BRZ in the performance hierarchy.

Backing up even further into the conversation, I don't think Porsche "got a pass" with calling the 718 an all new model. Personally, I think its pretty dumb and so do a lot of other Porsche owners. The 718 is not a 982, its really a 981.2. But for some reason Porsche insists on the change. To that end though, you can't slam them for it and compare to a supposed 2nd gen BRZ that's only slightly revised, b/c the power figures for the 718 went up a LOT over the 981, specifically torque.

Of course, its a question of how you want to "sell your soul". Most Porsche faithful hate the turbo 4s and don't care that they have more torque than the previous flat 6s. That Porsche is adding the 6 back into more and more 718s (despite almost no torque gain) should be pretty telling.

Both of these ^

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I get what you're saying, but Toyota didn't seem the slightest bit concerned about "sibling rivalry" back when they sold the Celica, MR2 and Supra all at the same time.

Ah, but that was a very different time back then. The market for sports and 'sporty' cars was much bigger back then. Sadly (at least for me), the market for sports/sporty cars has shrunk significantly since the 80's/90's. When the pie gets a lot smaller, you can't cut as many pieces out of it anymore (too many models and each one's sales would become too small to be financially viable).

I grew up in the 60's, and have been driving since the early 70's (yeah, I'm that old)(ugly too). I've seen the sales of 'performance' cars steadily decline that entire time. It breaks my heart, but the market wouldn't be anywhere near big enough today to support a Celica, MR2, and Supra from the same company at the same time.

[wbradley]

In North America (at least), companies like Toyota have been successful partly due to their continuous development and their ability to pack more and more content into their vehicles with each and every model launch. For example, take a Camry SE, look at the list of features in their top selling car and look at the price point. Similar to Walmart, they are dedicated to bringing you more features for less money.
Part of the tradeoff with this approach is that anything that requires exception to the routine or reduction of economy of scale has to be sacrificed for this to work.
Toyota are the farthest from a boutique manufacturer you could possibly get. Otherwise, 3/4 of the people here would be driving a Civic Si or a GTI since those sporty cars are priced to an economy of scale for sure.
Be thankful that some people here were able to take advantage of the limited packages made available. From a financial standpoint they are probably doing what amounts to a public service releasing those specials. But Subaru and Toyota want to make sure they are not out of the driving enthusiast's radar completely.
In the case of Toyota, this is for the entry to mid level. There's plenty in the Lexus line for those that indulge.
Screw the, "Supra is just a tarted up BMW" B.S., I'll gladly (seriously) take an LC500 with Performance Package and there's probably an expensive Japanese aftermarket for it too.

Edit: LC500

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by wbradley

In North America (at least), companies like Toyota have been successful partly due to their continuous development and their ability to pack more and more content into their vehicles with each and every model launch. For example, take a Camry SE, look at the list of features in their top selling car and look at the price point. Similar to Walmart, they are dedicated to bringing you more features for less money.
Part of the tradeoff with this approach is that anything that requires exception to the routine or reduction of economy of scale has to be sacrificed for this to work.
Toyota are the farthest from a boutique manufacturer you could possibly get. Otherwise, 3/4 of the people here would be driving a Civic Si or a GTI since those sporty cars are priced to an economy of scale for sure.
Be thankful that some people here were able to take advantage of the limited packages made available. From a financial standpoint they are probably doing what amounts to a public service releasing those specials. But Subaru and Toyota want to make sure they are not out of the driving enthusiast's radar completely.
In the case of Toyota, this is for the entry to mid level. There's plenty in the Lexus line for those that indulge.
Screw the, "Supra is just a tarted up BMW" B.S., I'll gladly (seriously) take an SC500 with Performance Package and there's probably an expensive Japanese aftermarket for it too.

I too enjoy a sport coupe that weighs as much as a small SUV.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

I too enjoy a sport coupe that weighs as much as a small SUV.

Not a substitute for a lightweight nimble low powered go kart but I bet it will hold up really well and drives like a charm. I see a 2020 in Ontario for $85K, only 1500 kms. Tempting, but I'd have to keep it over 10 years to amortize the cost to my liking. On the bright side, no arrogant service writer named Klaus will try to charge me for things that even the cheapest Kias don't need replaced after 2 or 3 years. Now, if I had $1000/month toward a company lease, that's a no brainer, or maybe a GS.

The 1990 SC300's are still on the road, a good percentage of them for a reason. And the original LS is probably one of the best quality cars ever built for it's price.

Alternately, you can turn a blind eye and lament that Toyota didn't build an amazing car surpassing Supra. Quarter mile 13s, 471 HP 398 ft/lb 5L V8. Slap a big turbo on that!

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

I too enjoy a sport coupe that weighs as much as a small SUV.

That'll only apply if and when you outgrow the 86 or something small and nimble like it.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Not a substitute for a lightweight nimble low powered go kart but I bet it will hold up really well and drives like a charm. I see a 2020 in Ontario for $85K, only 1500 kms. Tempting, but I'd have to keep it over 10 years to amortize the cost to my liking. On the bright side, no arrogant service writer named Klaus will try to charge me for things that even the cheapest Kias don't need replaced after 2 or 3 years. Now, if I had $1000/month toward a company lease, that's a no brainer, or maybe a GS.

The 1990 SC300's are still on the road, a good percentage of them for a reason. And the original LS is probably one of the best quality cars ever built for it's price.

I'm not doubting Lexus quality, but as someone who is already shopping for the next step beyond the eight six i'm just not seeing it on offer from Toyota, or any Japanese MFR really.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

I'm not doubting Lexus quality, but as someone who is already shopping for the next step beyond the eight six i'm just not seeing it on offer from Toyota, or any Japanese MFR really.

Yep, that is pretty much where I am at this point.