GM LFX 3.6L V6 Motor Swap

[gtpvette]

I’m going to preface this response with,,, haven’t decided 100% if I’m moving forward yet. All signs point to yes to but it’s certainly not set in stone. There is still some research to do and it has to make reasonable financial sense, well as least in terms of Hot Rod finances. Keep in mind this car is a DD doing 110 miles round trip daily and I plan to put another 75K+ miles on it before it’s or should I say I’m done.

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Not that I'd do it but I think this is an interesting proposition for someone who wants basic FI power for a track car without any of the draw backs. Lighter than the base FA20, forget the added weight a turbo or SC kit will add, far more reliable, also finding a replacement if you do manage to pop the engine would be cheaper and easier than replacing the FA20, for those who aren't interested in V8 power levels.

Couldn’t agree more. I certainly though about FI but boost on a 12.5 CR motor scares me.

Originally Posted by Lynxis

That said, there are problems. Like any swap, good luck getting everything working. ABS and TC are the biggest hurdles but even just getting basic things like AC, speedo and tach working can be difficult.

My big concern at this point. In reviewing things, it appears MRS-Colin has a lot of this worked out. I do have to have AC though as this is a DD and I live in the tropics, ABS next,, TC and cruise not that big of a deal until it goes up for sale which is 75K+ miles away. As I’m sure you know, these issues are the same for an LSx swap. As a sidebar a $6K Motec solution isn’t an option for me.

Originally Posted by Lynxis

And finally, as others have mentioned, you can get a V8 which will put out way more power for just a bit more cost (in some cases, even cheaper if you're willing to use an old truck engine) and not any more effort. Also, the LS swap has been done and is well documented and help is available but getting help with an LF/LG swap might be challenging and impossible without the first question being asked is "why aren't you doing an LS?"

To set the record straight, I’m certainly a believer in the LSx. There’s a nicely rebuilt one in the GTM and have another short block and 243 heads and LS6 intake in the shop. More than a few things needed to make this one run though. I’ve been down the rebuild road,,, to do it right isn’t cheap. This is the escalation that I don’t want for this car. A low mile LFX tuned with 350HP to me is perfect for this car. If I want to go faster I have the Vette at 460hp and drives way better at speed.


I don’t see a huge difference as far as the rest goes. Wiring won’t be a lot different than an LSx and the Miata guys know about running it standalone. V8 Roadsters can flash the PCM as required (VATs and mail order tune). Mounts don’t look too difficult (yes I have a welder) and I remain overly optimistic about the motor mounts supplied (not the isolators though). The transmission mount is well documented and I can plagiarize with the best of them.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by gtpvette

I’m going to preface this response with,,, haven’t decided 100% if I’m moving forward yet. All signs point to yes to but it’s certainly not set in stone. There is still some research to do and it has to make reasonable financial sense, well as least in terms of Hot Rod finances. Keep in mind this car is a DD doing 110 miles round trip daily and I plan to put another 75K+ miles on it before it’s or should I say I’m done.

Well if you do try it, I'm very interested. I've seen 2 LS swapped cars on track (a Miata and an FRS) and while they were both stupidly fast in a straight line, they both had a lot of trouble around corners. It looked like the engine seriously overpowered the chassis and the heavier front end (both used old, iron block V8s) seemed to upset the weight balance. That said, both were early test drives of the cars in question so I'm sure there was a lot of dialling in to go but I've always felt like a high output NA V6 would suit our cars better.

[ort895]

Subbed, definitely interested to see where this goes.

[gtpvette]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Well if you do try it, I'm very interested. I've seen 2 LS swapped cars on track (a Miata and an FRS) and while they were both stupidly fast in a straight line, they both had a lot of trouble around corners. It looked like the engine seriously overpowered the chassis and the heavier front end (both used old, iron block V8s) seemed to upset the weight balance. That said, both were early test drives of the cars in question so I'm sure there was a lot of dialling in to go but I've always felt like a high output NA V6 would suit our cars better.

Don't know where the weight balance will end up with the V6,,, I would think it would be pretty good. If I remember correctly the Vorshlag swap had pretty good numbers when they weighed the corners with the LSx.


That said,,, LFX = Light Speed,,, LSx = Ludicrous Speed


[ame]http://youtu.be/mk7VWcuVOf0[/ame]

[gtpvette]

Food for thought on transmissions. The Camaro transmission (MV5) ratios are maybe not as good as the CTS (MV7) transmission. Even the MV7 might stand a little different ratios in the lower gears,,, uppers are about the same in both. I guess these were this way as the cars they were designed for are quite a bit heavier. Redline on this motor is 7200


FRS Manual

1st 3.626
2nd 2.188
3rd 1.541
4th 1.213
5th 1.000
6th 0.767


Camaro MV5

4.48
2.58
1.63
1.19
1
0.75


CTS MV7

4.16
2.51
1.69
1.27 .
1
0.75



Still trying to get a handle on years and makes for the MV7 box.

[gtpvette]

Today’s question is,, is the stock fuel system going to work?. In reviewing this thread:

http://www.ft86club.coEQQYCAINm/forums/showthread.php?t=15100&highlight=fuel

FRS has a return less system and an in tank pump and regulator that maintains 58 PSI out bound and I assume this pressure makes it all the way to the high pressure pump. Does this sound correct??

Based on charts in the thread listed above (copied below),, at 58 PSI it should flow about 25.5 gallons an hour. Is this what you guys are seeing??

What I read in the Camaro forums 58 PSI at the LFX high pressure pump should work.

Now trying to figure out how many gallons an hour a NA 350hp motor needs. This seems to be the normal formula:
flywheel hp x brake-specific fuel consumption (B.S.F.C.) / 6) = gph

Based on industry standards the B.S.F.C for:
.
Naturally Aspirated:
Gasoline – .45 to .50
E85 – .63 to .70
Methanol – .9 to 1.0
.
Boosted or forced induction:
Gasoline – .60 to .65
E85 – .84 to .91
Methanol – 1.80 to 2.0
.
(350 x .45) / 6 = 26.25 GPH requirement
(350 * .50)/6 = 29.1 GPH requirement

I’m pretty close to the .45 BSF ,, so the questions is,,, do I really need to upgrade the pumps/regulators for the LFX motor?? BTW,,, no plans for E85 at least initially.

[-Willis-86touge]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Well if you do try it, I'm very interested. I've seen 2 LS swapped cars on track (a Miata and an FRS) and while they were both stupidly fast in a straight line, they both had a lot of trouble around corners. It looked like the engine seriously overpowered the chassis and the heavier front end (both used old, iron block V8s) seemed to upset the weight balance. That said, both were early test drives of the cars in question so I'm sure there was a lot of dialling in to go but I've always felt like a high output NA V6 would suit our cars better.

I beleive for all the people who ask why? This is just common sense! The frs/brz/86 was never designed to be high horsepower! It was about a great car that drove great! Even adding a aluminum v8 adds a couple hundred pounds! Why would you even want to do this to your car if you truly love what the car represents! Hell I personally would love to keep the fa20 if the power was better! So the only way to maintain balance is to find a engine that compliments the chassis and what it was meant to be. Yes the v6 might not be perfect but I think it's one of the best choices! Both power and balance plus the redline is 7200 so it almost identical to the fa20 in that respect too. As for the supercharger like I stated earlier that's added weight with a worst torque band! Turbo to much weight too and boost lag!

[Resolute]

How tall is this engine, and will it fit under the hood? 60 degree V6 engines are typically taller than the LS engines, and would be considerably taller than the FA20.

[gtpvette]

Originally Posted by Resolute

How tall is this engine, and will it fit under the hood? 60 degree V6 engines are typically taller than the LS engines, and would be considerably taller than the FA20.

Looks to be tall. For the life of me can't get measurements,, well as least online. In looking at a few stats the stroke of the V6 and the V8 aren't that far off so it should be quite a bit taller than the LSx when you consider the overhead cams. May try the recyclers this weekend,,we'll see.


As a sidebar,, my oil pan is in New York. Pretty quick.

[-Willis-86touge]

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/engine...ons-1760110530

I found this about the measurements. Seems about 30 in's from top to bottom of oil pan at the highest point and and about 35 in's from top to lowest part or the oilpan.

[gtpvette]

Originally Posted by -Willis-86touge

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/engine...ons-1760110530

I found this about the measurements. Seems about 30 in's from top to bottom of oil pan at the highest point and and about 35 in's from top to lowest part or the oilpan.

Thanks!

[gtpvette]

Good news and bad news today. Good news is oil pan is here. Amazing half way around the world and here already. Bad news,,, I found a motor, spoke to them yesterday. A 2012 Camaro 29K miles complete $1600. Of course I get there today,,, Oh you wanted the PCM and harness too, (of course I did and told him yesterday),, now $2K. Told him to pound sand. The search continues.


Ok back to the good. Here is the GTO pan:







And a few shots of my oil pan,,,

[gtpvette]

I'm guessing the LSX block is about 4" shorter and an inch or so more narrow. The Holden pan is a bit different in the rear than the GTO. It's basically 2" from the bell housing to get past rounder corner. I suspect it's much like the notched GTO pan. Does seem to be about a inch shorter from the bell housing to the sump. Depth is the same.


I do think it's work (motor height aside). Would love to see how the AY6 (6-speed V6 Camaro trans) compares to a T56 and how much room in and around the tunnel.

[-Willis-86touge]

Originally Posted by gtpvette

I'm guessing the LSX block is about 4" shorter and an inch or so more narrow. The Holden pan is a bit different in the rear than the GTO. It's basically 2" from the bell housing to get past rounder corner. I suspect it's much like the notched GTO pan. Does seem to be about a inch shorter from the bell housing to the sump. Depth is the same.


I do think it's work (motor height aside). Would love to see how the AY6 (6-speed V6 Camaro trans) compares to a T56 and how much room in and around the tuannel.

From what I understand the ay6 is a variant of the frs transmission. Should be close to the same.

The manual transmission: Aisin’s AZ6
Since the demise of the 1st-generation Lexus IS manual transmissions in 2005, Toyota’s sole remaining shift-it-yourself tranny for longitudinal rear-wheel-drive and RWD-centric all-wheel-drive applications for cars and light trucks has been the 6-speed Aisin AY6, which, in Toyotaspeak, is the RA60 series of transmissions. It actually exists in a plethora of versions, with varying individual and differential gear ratios. The RA60 proper is used on current 2-wheel-drive Toyota Tacoma pickups, the beefed-up RA60F for 4-wheel-drive Tacomas, RA61F for 4-wheel-drive FJ Cruiser, RA62 for the Lexus IS 250 and RA63 for Europe’s Lexus IS 200d and IS 220d diesels. The Aisin AY6 is also used by General Motors in V6 manual versions of the Cadillac CTS, reborn Chevrolet Camaro and Australia’s Holden Commodore. With the AY6 receiving generally tepid reviews for its vague and rubbery shifter feel in both its Toyota/Lexus and GM applications (including yours truly’s thoughts on the Lexus IS 250C Manual), this author dreaded the possibility that this might be the leading row-your-own contender for putting the power down to the rear wheels of the FT-86 family of coupes.

https://kaizenfactor.wordpress.com/2...e-know-so-far/

I almost wonder if you could do a bellhousing swap on the frs transmission and bolt the lfx motor up!!! Of course I think you would need to examine both at a junkyard. I haven't went that far yet.