Manual vs Automatic (Help!)

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

An MT really is only better in 2 things, which you basically just stated you aren’t doing. Faster acceleration, although this is only do better/closer gear spacing (5 useable gear instead of 4) and not inherent of an MT, and the difference is less and less the more power you make.

And clutch kicking the rear end for drifting which I don’t think many 86 owners are doing on the streets. At least i hope they aren’t.

So really the enjoyment of the 86 platform like you stated is not straight line speed but in its lightweight nimble handling in the twisties, in witch case MT or AT really doesn’t make much of a difference, MT doesn’t handle better or take turns faster. Its a momentum car and they both carry the same momentum.

If you don’t know why a manual transmission is more fun and engaging than any auto transmission, I’m not sure what else to say. And it has nothing to do with drifting. If outright acceleration is your goal, then a really good dual clutch auto will be faster. A human can’t shift that fast. But the twins don’t get a really good DCT. They get a really good 6 speed manual that is a ton of fun to use, or a decent auto transmission. If you can have the same amount of fun in both, I would love to know your secret.


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[soundman98]

The best car I've ever driven was a $150 manual chevy corsica on old farm roads. It had 250k miles, the clutch slipped if you tried using 4th, and the radio didn't work. But the cigarette lighter ignited bottle rockets just fine.

Sorry, someone was trying to make a point about fun cars?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by soundman98

Sorry, someone was trying to make a point about fun cars?

Beat up old cars and dirt roads! NOW we're getting down to it.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by JesseG

If you don’t know why a manual transmission is more fun and engaging than any auto transmission, I’m not sure what else to say. And it has nothing to do with drifting. If outright acceleration is your goal, then a really good dual clutch auto will be faster. A human can’t shift that fast. But the twins don’t get a really good DCT. They get a really good 6 speed manual that is a ton of fun to use, or a decent auto transmission. If you can have the same amount of fun in both, I would love to know your secret.


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AT can manually upshift, down shift, hold any gear, bang off limiter all day as much as you like. Anything the MT can do the AT can do, besides launch above 2400rpm (0-60), clutch kick (drifting) and 5 gears vs 4 (acceleration) none of that does much for twisties or to improve the handling.

My point is i agree you got the wrong car if acceleration is your goal. Which means handling is the selling point. Both MT and AT handle exactly the same.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

AT can manually upshift, down shift, hold any gear, bang off limiter all day as much as you like. Anything the MT can do the AT can do, besides launch above 2400rpm (0-60), clutch kick (drifting) and 5 gears vs 4 (acceleration) none of that does much for twisties or to improve the handling.

My point is i agree you got the wrong car if acceleration is your goal. Which means handling is the selling point. Both MT and AT handle exactly the same.

I completely agree that good modern automatic transmissions can be fun in their own way, and can process changing gears faster than a person. Changing gears does have an impact on driver engagement, and that would include handling. The auto in the twins is pretty darn good, and I considered getting one because of my daily drive. And this is all kind of funny, because I’m considering the auto if I get a 2nd gen BRZ (I’m almost 100% sure I will get one, transmission choice is still a little up in the air). The only reason I would get the AT is for convenience, knowing that I will eventually have to drive in heavy traffic again. I don’t care if some people think driving a manual in traffic is no big deal. Bumper to bumper traffic absolutely sucks with a manual. It’s the car equivalent of blue balls.

I think we can both agree the end ‘results’ of a good AT or MT will be nearly identical. You can take a corner at the same speed with both. But you can’t replace how fun it is to manually shift a car, it’s the ‘X’ factor I guess.


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[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by JesseG

If you can have the same amount of fun in both, I would love to know your secret.

OK, here's my secret. Having driven over a million miles in my lifetime with a good portion of it in MT cars, I know how to drive, which has almost nothing to do with what my left foot is or is not doing.

Frankly, if I'm driving a standard transmission car, it is basically automatic, I'm just doing the work. I don't think about it, I'm not "engaged" in the process, it just happens.

If I'm driving the AT in an 86 (or pretty much any modern AT with paddles) in manual mode, its the same thing. I flap the paddles without really thinking about it, it just happens when it needs to happen.

Either process is so small a part of the entire process. In one, my left foot isn't doing anything, in the other my "flappy fingers" are bored. It's a trade-off.

In the end, its just an individual preference thing. The availability of a MT has zero influence in my choice of cars. The performance of the transmission (MT/AT/Whatever) is what matters to me. The one in the 86 is about as good as an AT can get, and it is more than adequate for any twisty driving I do.

I went back and forth on it multiple times before making a final decision. In the end I got the AT because it was different, and gave me driving choices.

Oddly enough, if I was to get something like the upcoming CT5-V Blackwing, I would get the MT because it's unique in the marketplace.

[Ultramaroon]

Here's my secret. I listen to, feel the machine do its thing. As long as it's doing what it's supposed to do, I'm happy. The rest is just having fun with a polarizing subject.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Changing gears does have an impact on driver engagement, and that would include handling. But you can’t replace how fun it is to manually shift a car, it’s the ‘X’ factor I guess.


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You can manually shift the auto....
You have 100% complete control of if/when you change gears in an AT.
It has a few failsafes so you can't money shift, but you can still bang off limiter in any gear for as long as you want till your engine blows. you can be in 3rd gear for the straight, down shift to 2nd for the turn floor it pop back into 3rd etc... literally no difference in gear selection capabilites between AT vs MT. both 100% manual.

It sounds like you think the AT can't manually change gears or something.

the ONLY difference is manually shifting with a clutch vs manually shifting with no clutch.

The AT does shift sequentially but with how fast it shifts you can change gears twice in almost the same time as a manual can change once. so i can drop 4th to 3rd to 2nd if I wanted in almost the same time as an MT would do 4th to 2nd. And since your down shifting most likely off throttle you arent losing any time anyways. Typically shifting sequentially up or down 1 gear at a time is all you really need though.

[leevanf]

I used to have the MT/AT dilemma before buying this car. Since I've been driving on a manual daily ever since, I opted for the automatic because I knew it had most of (and even more) features that an MT provides. (holding gear, can autoblip, etc) - and especially because in my case, the car would be driven in traffic 80% of the time. After years of ownership, I have come to realize that since the highlights of this car is in the chassis and balance, tail happiness. Either transmission will still let you enjoy those. Sure, drifting, launching, etc can add fun on the manual - but those aren't really "normal" sports car features/activities. Need a car to "row" on? There are many manual choices out there. So to ultimately help one decide, I guess the question is simply, where do you drive most of the time? If it is your first car or first chance to own a manual however, I think it would be great to own the MT. On discussion about acceleration and maximizing speed, really, neither transmission will make the car really fast. Even a good MT launch is still relatively slow to a lot of sports cars/sedans out there.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

The AT does shift sequentially but with how fast it shifts you can change gears twice in almost the same time as a manual can change once. so i can drop 4th to 3rd to 2nd if I wanted in almost the same time as an MT would do 4th to 2nd. And since your down shifting most likely off throttle you arent losing any time anyways. Typically shifting sequentially up or down 1 gear at a time is all you really need though.

The MT has teeny little balk rings. It's actually quite slow to downshift. Skipping gears or shifting it quickly/forcefully in either direction is abusive.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

You can manually shift the auto....
You have 100% complete control of if/when you change gears in an AT.

Just an FYI, but no you don't. You are simply sending a shift request to the TCU. If all conditions are met, the select set of solenoids will actuate. That will hold a series of clutches and brakes to select the requested gear ratio.

You aren't "manually" shifting the auto. You are telling it you'd like a shift, and it's doing it.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Just an FYI, but no you don't. You are simply sending a shift request to the TCU. If all conditions are met, the select set of solenoids will actuate. That will hold a series of clutches and brakes to select the requested gear ratio.

You aren't "manually" shifting the auto. You are telling it you'd like a shift, and it's doing it.

I am MANUALLY selecting my gear, by MANUALLY telling my transmission to shift. I learned this from the owners MANUAL where it states how to put the car into MANUAL mode by MANUALLY SHIFTING the lever to the M position indicating MANUAL mode.

If you can use the word manual 6 times in one post it means your automatic is now a manual. but 8 times is even better.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

The MT has teeny little balk rings.

Mine has rings of sheer awesomeness.

[anticubus]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Mine has rings of shear awesomeness.

FTFY

No really, they're fine in stock form just like most things on the car, but they aren't meant for a lot of abuse. The last sporty Aisin Toyota put in a sports car (C60 for the 2ZZ-GE) had the same problem, the 3rd/4th gears were made of glass. Even then that one would snap doing pulls stock, so things are at least a little better these days.