follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > 2nd Gens: GR86 and BRZ > GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86)

GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-01-2021, 12:20 PM   #43
Robertw
Member
 
Robertw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Drives: 1996 Turbo Miata
Location: MA
Posts: 49
Thanks: 5
Thanked 42 Times in 19 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
What id the dyno readings are falsified?
Ah yes (grabs tin foil hat), go on I'm listening.
Robertw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2021, 12:23 PM   #44
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 3,896
Thanks: 913
Thanked 3,032 Times in 1,629 Posts
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
What id the dyno readings are falsified?
1/4-mile trap speeds somewhat confirm that the new engine is underrated. 101mph vs. 95mph suggests about 21% more power vs. last-gen. A more significant bump than expected for sure...
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Yoshoobaroo (12-01-2021)
Old 12-01-2021, 12:25 PM   #45
Tcoat
He who smelt it...
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 65,858
Thanks: 58,348
Thanked 99,589 Times in 43,225 Posts
Mentioned: 2403 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertw View Post
Ah yes (grabs tin foil hat), go on I'm listening.
If under rated is an option then misreported by error or deliberation is as well.
There is zero reason why it would be officially under rated. None.
The discrepancy's in the measured drivetrain loss are just to great to be ignored. Something is off someplace.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (12-02-2021), nikitopo (12-01-2021)
Old 12-01-2021, 12:28 PM   #46
Yoshoobaroo
TRACKBREAD
 
Yoshoobaroo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Drives: 2013 BRZ
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,550
Thanks: 2,328
Thanked 3,555 Times in 1,702 Posts
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Car & Driver Comparison Test Review: Veloster N vs. GTI vs. BRZ vs. GR86

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
1/4-mile trap speeds somewhat confirm that the new engine is underrated. 101mph vs. 95mph suggests about 21% more power vs. last-gen. A more significant bump than expected for sure...

Yep, I was skeptical of the dynographs until I saw the difference in trap speeds. Toyota and by extension Subaru learned from BMW that underrating your engines is a good thing, it makes your cars look faster than their matched competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
If under rated is an option then misreported by error or deliberation is as well.
There is zero reason why it would be officially under rated. None.
The discrepancy's in the measured drivetrain loss are just to great to be ignored. Something is off someplace.
You may not like it, but many manufacturers have been doing it for decades. It makes the cars look good in comparison tests, and it also make sure that even if you get an absolute dog of an engine with a shit transmission, you still get the advertised horsepower. Not that that really happens anymore, but that was one of the historical reasons for underrating drivetrains.
Yoshoobaroo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Yoshoobaroo For This Useful Post:
alphasaur (12-01-2021), Ohio Enthusiast (12-01-2021), Ryephile (12-05-2021), timurrrr (12-01-2021)
Old 12-01-2021, 12:33 PM   #47
Robertw
Member
 
Robertw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Drives: 1996 Turbo Miata
Location: MA
Posts: 49
Thanks: 5
Thanked 42 Times in 19 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
If under rated is an option then misreported by error or deliberation is as well.
There is zero reason why it would be officially under rated. None.
The discrepancy's in the measured drivetrain loss are just to great to be ignored. Something is off someplace.
Using a Car and Driver article for consistency.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...a-dyno-tested/

"Next up on the dyno: the 2021 Supra. Engine revisions for this year include a new cylinder head and exhaust manifold, plus redesigned pistons. Toyota claims the turbocharged 3.0-liter inline-six produces 382 horsepower and 368 lb-ft of torque at the engine's crankshaft. After a few runs on the dyno, the 2021 engine put down 388 horsepower and 421 lb-ft at the wheels. Remove the driveline losses, and the engine appears to be capable of 400 horsepower at the crank."


FYI, I still have my tin foil hat on for the next reply.
Robertw is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Robertw For This Useful Post:
Blighty (12-01-2021)
Old 12-01-2021, 12:44 PM   #48
Tcoat
He who smelt it...
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 65,858
Thanks: 58,348
Thanked 99,589 Times in 43,225 Posts
Mentioned: 2403 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
I give up.
It is the bestest car evers. As good as a Porsche! Let's ignore that other cars have changed in the interim.
The first gen was crap. Minivans and bicycles beat it every time.
Let's check back in a year and see what people are saying.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (12-02-2021), nikitopo (12-01-2021), Turdinator (12-03-2021)
Old 12-01-2021, 12:52 PM   #49
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 3,896
Thanks: 913
Thanked 3,032 Times in 1,629 Posts
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
There is zero reason [I can think of] why it would be officially under rated. None [that I can think of].
FTFY

Quote:
The discrepancy's in the measured drivetrain loss are just to great to be ignored. Something is off someplace.
What's measured at the dyno is NOT "drivetrain loss". What is measured is power at the dyno drum. Taking a manufacturer's rated engine horsepower and subtracting what is measured at an independent dyno is going to be a potentially *wildly* inaccurate estimate of drivetrain loss. You'll be way closer just using 13% as a near-enough guess for an FR car like this.

All evidence suggests that the new engine is underrated. Dyno results (I wouldn't 100% rely on these), 1/4-mile trap speeds (a lot more reliable particularly if done by the same people and corrected for atmospheric conditions), and the fact that the new engine makes peak power at the same rpm as the last one (which suggests power gain roughly commensurate with displacement increase: +20%). Other manufacturers have underrated power output, it's nothing new.
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Ryephile (12-05-2021), timurrrr (12-01-2021)
Old 12-01-2021, 12:58 PM   #50
PulsarBeeerz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: BRZ
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 668
Thanks: 500
Thanked 492 Times in 271 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Brand hierarchy is still a thing. The 2.0 Supra has a reported 255hp @$43,000 and laid down 215whp at Dsports dynojet. The Gen2 86 is laying down similar whp @ $28k. Nothing is off they just underrated it like GM, BMW and Porsche have done for years. How is this a bad thing. The engine is performing far better than I anticipated. Its already throwing up near K24A swap numbers dead stock.
PulsarBeeerz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2021, 02:00 PM   #51
nikitopo
Senior Member
 
nikitopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: '15 BRZ RA
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,758
Thanks: 2,368
Thanked 1,903 Times in 1,245 Posts
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehorsw View Post
Gen1 cars are amazing, but your statement is not true. See below cut and paste from your link:

“ With only 200 horses and a 6400-rpm torque peak, there's no power cushion to adjust the *mid-corner pace”

Praise was there, but “not enough power” was too.
You should continue your quote with the next sentence:

"The Subion challenges drivers to maintain speed and when apex velocity is maxed out, so is the driver-satisfaction gauge."

So it wants to say that it is a momentum car. This is the pretty much the same for the new car which keeps the same character.
nikitopo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to nikitopo For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (12-02-2021)
Old 12-01-2021, 07:29 PM   #52
Ernest72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Drives: 16 Silver BRZ, 04 Silver WRX wagon
Location: Rockland county, NY
Posts: 1,228
Thanks: 122
Thanked 654 Times in 377 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I’ll wait to test drive one and feel the difference. Numbers don’t mean as much for a DD. Still not switching from my 16 at stage 2. But if the new one feels great things could change, ya never know.
Ernest72 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ernest72 For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (12-02-2021)
Old 12-01-2021, 08:34 PM   #53
Blighty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: Pegasus White Toyota 86 GTS
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 645
Thanks: 623
Thanked 460 Times in 233 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Its probably a combination of things.

We know it is a 232 HP engine in japan, perhaps the lower rating in the US was based on a specific quality of pump gas, and with some good quality pump fuel you are getting another 4 or 5hp over the 228.

Other improvements in the drivetrain like the lightened drive shaft and perhaps some new oiling in the dif are also contributing to a reduction in loss.

I guess at the end of the day only toyota and subaru will be able to fully explain why the performance is looking as good as it is.
Blighty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2021, 09:02 PM   #54
Lantanafrs2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2013 frs red
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2,894
Thanks: 1,797
Thanked 2,551 Times in 1,364 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Lots of resentment towards the new car. Its substantially quicker. That cant be argued.
Lantanafrs2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2021, 09:23 PM   #55
Ernest72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Drives: 16 Silver BRZ, 04 Silver WRX wagon
Location: Rockland county, NY
Posts: 1,228
Thanks: 122
Thanked 654 Times in 377 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2 View Post
Lots of resentment towards the new car. Its substantially quicker. That cant be argued.
I dont think its resentment, its uncertainty. If you own a Gen 1, you really cant make a decision whether its worth it through videos, or dyno comparisons, etc.

I wholeheartedly, without a doubt believe that the Gen 2 stock is faster than my 16 with tune and catless header. But from a DD perspective, is that extra torque and power, worth returning to stock , selling various parts or maybe transferring some to a Gen 2, the additional money on the trade or sale and paying taxes again.

My gut feeling is its not worth it for my DD, but I will never know for sure until I get to drive one and do a direct comparison for myself.

There may be some people looking for something to justify staying with the Gen 1 (some confirmation bias going on). But after 25 years in the science field I know how to be objective. At the moment I am happy with the Gen 1 even if every Gen 2 is faster than me. Every minivan has been faster than me for the last 5 years of ownership, so its meaningless.

But my opinion could change after driving one. Nothing beats the direct comparison.
Ernest72 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ernest72 For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (12-02-2021)
Old 12-01-2021, 09:32 PM   #56
nikitopo
Senior Member
 
nikitopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: '15 BRZ RA
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,758
Thanks: 2,368
Thanked 1,903 Times in 1,245 Posts
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
All evidence suggests that the new engine is underrated. Dyno results (I wouldn't 100% rely on these), 1/4-mile trap speeds (a lot more reliable particularly if done by the same people and corrected for atmospheric conditions), and the fact that the new engine makes peak power at the same rpm as the last one (which suggests power gain roughly commensurate with displacement increase: +20%). Other manufacturers have underrated power output, it's nothing new.
Not all evidence. Top speed in European car is very close to the old one which suggests that catalog power is not underrated. They didn't have any reason to underrate top speed in Germany and no reason to limit it electronically for stability reasons. If you don't want to listen me, then listen Tcoat. He knows what he is talking about...

Last edited by nikitopo; 12-01-2021 at 09:42 PM.
nikitopo is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GR86/BRZ Comparison Articles Kona61 GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) 74 01-02-2022 09:39 AM
GR86/BRZ Track Comparison (Japanese) Kona61 GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) 95 12-24-2021 07:36 PM
2022 GR86 & BRZ Post Serious Performance Numbers (Nearly 1g Skidpad)! [C&D Review] Hachiroku GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) 3 11-24-2021 08:18 AM
Drift King Video Test: Gazoo Racing GR86 vs. BRZ STI TofuJoe Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 1 03-15-2018 09:21 PM
what will be the BRZ first comparison test? BMWDAD BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics 8 12-18-2011 04:47 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.