BBK for long term running costs

[Lynxis]

Making a new thread because I can't find anything exactly like this in a search and even if such a thread exists, it's probably full of outdated info.

I'm finally able to track frequently again (8 days planned this summer) and I'm starting to go through front brake pads at an excessive rate. I'm currently on the stock brake system and I think it's time for me to consider moving to a BBK again given that I'm due for new rotors anyways. This point was driven home when I discovered that I went through half my front set of XP10s on my last track day. To be clear, rears have less than 25% use and look like they'll last 2-3x longer than the fronts.

So with an eye to long term pad and rotor costs, I'm looking for opinions about big brake kits. I'm not someone who is concerned about potential weight savings.

For my own experience, I actually used to run the RR Racing Sport Performance front BBK and honestly, I'd do this again if it wasn't so obvious that it's cobbled together with mix-and-match parts. It's functional and it's cheap but it's got an obvious and ugly ring around the inside of the rotor where the brake pad doesn't touch. That said, as far as cost is concerned, it's probably the cheapest kit you can get, the pads cost the same as stock pads and at least in my experience, they last quite a bit longer as relative wear on front pads was practically identical to the rears.

I've got a lead on a full set of like-new Brembo calipers, brackets and hardware from a 2019 Performance Pack car for very reasonable money. Even factoring in the cost of new brake lines and rotors, this is still less than any new front-only kit (besides RR Racing) but I'm not certain I want to go this route after learning that the pads will cost more and are unlikely to last any longer than stock, although long term rotor costs will probably drop. I'd like an informed opinion on this.

I had also considered the Essex Sprint Kit but I'm hearing front pad wear isn't expected to be notably improved from stock but if so, this kit sounds like it would be pretty close to the Brembos from the PP. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in. Upfront costs for this kit is very expensive now.

I'm obviously curious about opinions on other kits out there too.

[NoHaveMSG]

The RR kits are just rebranded Wilwood. The Wilwood kits have a surprisingly high markup so they can rebrand and undercut and sell for cheaper which is actually pretty cool of them. If you look at what a comparable Wilwood kit sells for at a place like FTSpeed, they are quite a bit cheaper. That being said, just running their front kit, or the Wilwood for that matter, puts a bit too much brake bias forward when looking at all the charts I have found and you would want to pair it with one of the rear kits to bring it back in check or stagger pad compounds.

The pad wear on the AP kit is much better than stock. I have a few buddies that run the sprint kit and are very happy with them.

I have the older Stoptech ST40 kit. I like it, but the stoptech friction rings are much more expensive then the AP's, like almost 100/ea more. The finish is also not as nice as the AP's and parts like a caliper rebuild kit are expensive. It's been superseded by the ST43 kit which I don't know much about.

Another thing you may want to consider is you may be getting to quick for XP10's. I melted down a set of XP10's even with BBK.

[spcmafia]

Oh boy...

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

The RR kits are just rebranded Wilwood. The Wilwood kits have a surprisingly high markup so they can rebrand and undercut and sell for cheaper which is actually pretty cool of them. If you look at what a comparable Wilwood kit sells for at a place like FTSpeed, they are quite a bit cheaper. That being said, just running their front kit, or the Wilwood for that matter, puts a bit too much brake bias forward when looking at all the charts I have found and you would want to pair it with one of the rear kits to bring it back in check or stagger pad compounds.

The pad wear on the AP kit is much better than stock. I have a few buddies that run the sprint kit and are very happy with them.

I have the older Stoptech ST40 kit. I like it, but the stoptech friction rings are much more expensive then the AP's, like almost 100/ea more. The finish is also not as nice as the AP's and parts like a caliper rebuild kit are expensive. It's been superseded by the ST43 kit which I don't know much about.

Another thing you may want to consider is you may be getting to quick for XP10's. I melted down a set of XP10's even with BBK.

This is helpful info.

Having owned the RR kit, I can say it's not just a rebranded Wilwood kit. The Wilwood kits are only available with the "narrow" calipers and they use their own rotors and sizing. The RR kits are available in narrow and wide calipers and uses a standard STi sized rotor which is where most of the cost savings come from. Further the Wilwood kits are designed to be used at all 4 corners and the RR Racing kits will keep close to standard bias with the standard rear brakes.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

This is helpful info.

Having owned the RR kit, I can say it's not just a rebranded Wilwood kit. The Wilwood kits are only available with the "narrow" calipers and they use their own rotors and sizing. The RR kits are available in narrow and wide calipers and uses a standard STi sized rotor which is where most of the cost savings come from. Further the Wilwood kits are designed to be used at all 4 corners and the RR Racing kits will keep close to standard bias with the standard rear brakes.

I was pricing them before I bought my kit and I thought you could get it in the wide or narrow super light. That was a while ago though. We are a Wilwood dealer at work and they gave me like 6 options. I could be wrong on the bias, the charts I have seen people comparing them had them a bit farther forward. People have pointed out discrepancies in those charts before though uniformly the all had the RR kit forward biased. Could be wrong, again. If you were comfortable with it before I wouldn’t consider it an obstacle.

Knowing what I know now, I would have went sprint kit. I got my ST kit second hand but new in box and it seemed like a good deal but just the friction ring cost already has me behind the AP kit.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I was pricing them before I bought my kit and I thought you could get it in the wide or narrow super light. That was a while ago though. We are a Wilwood dealer at work and they gave me like 6 options. I could be wrong on the bias, the charts I have seen people comparing them had them a bit farther forward. People have pointed out discrepancies in those charts before though uniformly the all had the RR kit forward biased. Could be wrong, again. If you were comfortable with it before I wouldn’t consider it an obstacle.

Knowing what I know now, I would have went sprint kit. I got my ST kit second hand but new in box and it seemed like a good deal but just the friction ring cost already has me behind the AP kit.

At least on the Wilwood website, last time I checked (maybe 2 months ago?) the only options for the 86/BRZ make no mention of the wide calipers. Perhaps they have more options if you speak directly to them.

Regarding bias chart, I've seen this before:

https://www.pointmeby.com/2016/09/24...z-frs-gt86-86/

I've seen a few corrections to this chart but I've not seen full blown criticism that the data is bad.

I figured a 5% forward push in bias wasn't huge, the average track rat probably wouldn't notice although more serious drivers would. It makes me happy that I went with the Sport Performance kit which has extremely close to stock bias and certainly I had no functionality or performance issues with that kit, I was braking later on that kit with more consistency than I do now. I'd run it again but I'm just looking for something a bit more serious this time.

Also meant to mention this in my last reply but yes, I'm definitely beyond the XP10s capabilities. They still stop my car fine during hot lapping (the 2-3 laps I can get before running into traffic anyways) but definitely not holding up durability wise. My track gets a lot of lapping time (3-4 hours per day depending on turn out) and is moderate to heavy on brakes. I intend to get one more set of front XP10s so I can exhaust the rears but I'll be moving on to something more robust after and I'd like to be into another BBK by then.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

At least on the Wilwood website, last time I checked (maybe 2 months ago?) the only options for the 86/BRZ make no mention of the wide calipers. Perhaps they have more options if you speak directly to them.

Regarding bias chart, I've seen this before:

https://www.pointmeby.com/2016/09/24...z-frs-gt86-86/

I've seen a few corrections to this chart but I've not seen full blown criticism that the data is bad.

I figured a 5% forward push in bias wasn't huge, the average track rat probably wouldn't notice although more serious drivers would. It makes me happy that I went with the Sport Performance kit which has extremely close to stock bias and certainly I had no functionality or performance issues with that kit, I was braking later on that kit with more consistency than I do now. I'd run it again but I'm just looking for something a bit more serious this time.

Also meant to mention this in my last reply but yes, I'm definitely beyond the XP10s capabilities. They still stop my car fine during hot lapping (the 2-3 laps I can get before running into traffic anyways) but definitely not holding up durability wise. My track gets a lot of lapping time (3-4 hours per day depending on turn out) and is moderate to heavy on brakes. I intend to get one more set of front XP10s so I can exhaust the rears but I'll be moving on to something more robust after and I'd like to be into another BBK by then.

That was one of the charts. I can't find the other but it was one someone made up and posted and it was picked apart a bit. I really can't correlate how much a 5% bias shift will equate in driving. I'm no expert. I just know some of the faster guys like a bit more rearward bias for trail braking. Lots of guys run the RR kit and are happy with it so it's never been a huge concern of mine, just a point that I always feel relevant to mention as it may be a concern for some depending on wants and driving style.

I always found the XP10's to feel mushy and hard to modulate at the limit when they are hot. I instantly got much more consistent on the brakes with stouter pads.

[CSG Mike]

With the appropriate BBK, long term operating cost can come down substantially.

The cheapest upgrade path would be a good condition used set of PP Brembos.

Unless this is a race car, generally avoid the race calipers. You want street calipers for street use.

[JRitt]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Making a new thread because I can't find anything exactly like this in a search and even if such a thread exists, it's probably full of outdated info.

I'm finally able to track frequently again (8 days planned this summer) and I'm starting to go through front brake pads at an excessive rate. I'm currently on the stock brake system and I think it's time for me to consider moving to a BBK again given that I'm due for new rotors anyways. This point was driven home when I discovered that I went through half my front set of XP10s on my last track day. To be clear, rears have less than 25% use and look like they'll last 2-3x longer than the fronts.

So with an eye to long term pad and rotor costs, I'm looking for opinions about big brake kits. I'm not someone who is concerned about potential weight savings.

For my own experience, I actually used to run the RR Racing Sport Performance front BBK and honestly, I'd do this again if it wasn't so obvious that it's cobbled together with mix-and-match parts. It's functional and it's cheap but it's got an obvious and ugly ring around the inside of the rotor where the brake pad doesn't touch. That said, as far as cost is concerned, it's probably the cheapest kit you can get, the pads cost the same as stock pads and at least in my experience, they last quite a bit longer as relative wear on front pads was practically identical to the rears.

I've got a lead on a full set of like-new Brembo calipers, brackets and hardware from a 2019 Performance Pack car for very reasonable money. Even factoring in the cost of new brake lines and rotors, this is still less than any new front-only kit (besides RR Racing) but I'm not certain I want to go this route after learning that the pads will cost more and are unlikely to last any longer than stock, although long term rotor costs will probably drop. I'd like an informed opinion on this.

I had also considered the Essex Sprint Kit but I'm hearing front pad wear isn't expected to be notably improved from stock but if so, this kit sounds like it would be pretty close to the Brembos from the PP. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in. Upfront costs for this kit is very expensive now.

I'm obviously curious about opinions on other kits out there too.

Hola! I remember talking with you back when you were originally looking at BBKs.



To my knowledge we've never had any customers tell us that their pad wear with their AP Racing by Essex Sprint or Endurance Kit was similar to stock. In all cases pad wear is far better with our CP8350 brake kits. Many of our 86 clients tells us our brake kit pays for itself in consumables in about two years. Here is a review from one of our customers who was also running Cobalt pads on his stock calipers, and then switched to our front kit. He ran a break-even analysis to figure out how quickly our kit paid for itself.



https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...acing-bbk-lots


If you scroll to the bottom of our blog you'll see lots of 86 reviews from when we released our kits. Most of them talk about the longevity of the components. https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog


We now have many more options than we did when we first launched our original kits...we now even have bigger kits with six piston calipers and 25mm thick pads. You could run those forever and never wear out the pads. You can see the full breakdown of our latest options here:


https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...s-gen1-vs-gen2


Here's a 299mm vs. 325mm article in case you're trying to narrow it down between those two:


https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog...kit-comparison


Let us know how we can help.

[Matt93SE]

Dragging this back up for a little more anecdotal evidence.. These cars need brake ducts in the front if you're boosted and doing track duty. I have a JRSC on my car (roughly 280whp), and after an off as a local track, I tore up my brake ducts and ran out of time to get them fixed before the next race. "oh this car has plenty of brakes. they'll be fine."

I burned through an entire set of front pads in a weekend at the next race and cracked the rotors. was getting a soft pedal (fluid fade) toward the end of the 40min race on Sunday, but that's cause I had <6mm of pad left and the heat transfer into the pistons was increasing.

I got the brake ducts put back on for the next race and used about 10% of the pad over the same amount of track time.. in >90F heat at that.


Brake setup: TBM "F4" brake kit. it's yet another Wilwood Superlite clone caliper w/ 1.5" pistons. 12.2"x 1.25" Wilwood spec 37 rotors. Stock base model rear rotors & calipers. Hawk DTC-70 pads front and rear. Also has the APR brake ducting setup on front, but I modified it by adding the Verus fender pancake duct thingies and steering rack spacers so I don't quit tearing off the brake ducts with tire rub.


Bias is fine, if a touch front but that's fine with aero & Hoosiers cause I can stand this car on its nose under braking and more rear bias makes the car tail happy under trail braking.

These brakes were on the car when I bought it, but I would have gone with an AP Sprint kit instead if I were doing it over again. (maybe an off-season upgrade?)

All that said, running costs are pretty minimal with every BBK I've run. the 2-pc rotors are WAY more durable than any OEM cast iron rotor I've used, and they last multiple seasons of track only use.
On my last car (240SX with stock-ish engine, 170whp @ 2600lbs), I would get about 40hrs of race use per set of pads, and rotors would last me about 5 sets of pads before needing replaced.

On my FRS with more power and weight, I get about 16hrs on a set of pads, and rotors last about 3 sets of pads. I spend WAY more money in fuel and tires than I do in brakes.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Matt93SE

Dragging this back up for a little more anecdotal evidence.. These cars need brake ducts in the front if you're boosted and doing track duty. I have a JRSC on my car (roughly 280whp), and after an off as a local track, I tore up my brake ducts and ran out of time to get them fixed before the next race. "oh this car has plenty of brakes. they'll be fine."

I burned through an entire set of front pads in a weekend at the next race and cracked the rotors. was getting a soft pedal (fluid fade) toward the end of the 40min race on Sunday, but that's cause I had <6mm of pad left and the heat transfer into the pistons was increasing.

I got the brake ducts put back on for the next race and used about 10% of the pad over the same amount of track time.. in >90F heat at that.


Brake setup: TBM "F4" brake kit. it's yet another Wilwood Superlite clone caliper w/ 1.5" pistons. 12.2"x 1.25" Wilwood spec 37 rotors. Stock base model rear rotors & calipers. Hawk DTC-70 pads front and rear. Also has the APR brake ducting setup on front, but I modified it by adding the Verus fender pancake duct thingies and steering rack spacers so I don't quit tearing off the brake ducts with tire rub.


Bias is fine, if a touch front but that's fine with aero & Hoosiers cause I can stand this car on its nose under braking and more rear bias makes the car tail happy under trail braking.

These brakes were on the car when I bought it, but I would have gone with an AP Sprint kit instead if I were doing it over again. (maybe an off-season upgrade?)

All that said, running costs are pretty minimal with every BBK I've run. the 2-pc rotors are WAY more durable than any OEM cast iron rotor I've used, and they last multiple seasons of track only use.
On my last car (240SX with stock-ish engine, 170whp @ 2600lbs), I would get about 40hrs of race use per set of pads, and rotors would last me about 5 sets of pads before needing replaced.

On my FRS with more power and weight, I get about 16hrs on a set of pads, and rotors last about 3 sets of pads. I spend WAY more money in fuel and tires than I do in brakes.

Are you getting ID or OD cracking? IF or OF?

What's your competition weight?

[Matt93SE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Are you getting ID or OD cracking? IF or OF?

What's your competition weight?

it's just the rotor face surfaces with normal heat checking which eventually developed into cracks to the outer edge and thru the front face of the rotor. I'd say just normal wear and tear- nothing I haven't seen before. these rotors had at least 2 seasons of racing on them with me driving and who knows how much more before I bought the car.

competition weight is roughly 2900lb.

[CSG Mike]

Looks very normal to me too.

Great results with ducting!


The brakes not lasting without ducting is a dead giveaway that ultimately, you do need/want more brake, if available.

[Matt93SE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Looks very normal to me too.

Great results with ducting!


The brakes not lasting without ducting is a dead giveaway that ultimately, you do need/want more brake, if available.

Yeah agreed, somewhat. I can stand on the brakes all day long with ducting, but once I kill the airflow they wear quickly. so as long as I don't damage the front of the car or an air hose to kill airflow, then the heat is manageable with no issues.

Next step is better pads and I'm switching to Coleman rotors next time replacements are due. The Hawk pads aren't bad, but G-Loc offers nice contingency contingency and I've heard nothing but great stuff about them.