Car & Driver Comparison Test Review: Veloster N vs. GTI vs. BRZ vs. GR86

[nikitopo]

As mentioned already by Tcoat. Scion FR-S / Subaru BRZ were named a 10best car by Car and Driver magazine back in 2013. So, yes it was getting a lot of praise by the media before the "not enough power" thing popped up. Performance figures at that time were pretty much impressive too.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-cars-feature/

[EAGLE5]

Acceleration is wonderful fun. The MYLR with the boost can do 0-60 in 4.2 seconds, and all it takes is a stomp of the pedal. Buuuuut the FRS is of course way more fun. The car doesn't need more power to be fun. It only needs more power when passing in a short space.

[m.box.design]

Originally Posted by Robertw

Plus we are approaching the end of ICE cars, so to me at least, the 2nd gen feels like a swan song to affordable, rwd, japanese sports cars of yesteryear as we approach the EV future whether we like it or not.

It does seem like we are at the beginning of the end of the ICE car. But I would say AFFORDABLE is the key word here. In today's economic climate, not very many consumers can afford a brand new car payment IF they are also paying rent/mortgage while earning a median income of 35k - 60k.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Everybody seems to think I am slamming the results! I am no way, shape or form trying to say the results are not good. They are spot on what they needed to be if they were going to attract new "enthusiast" buyers but not going over the top to scare away the "casual" drivers.

My very very simple point (that people seem to be missing in their almost rabid defense of the improvements) is that in a year or so from now the people THAT WON'T BUY THIS CAR ANYWAY will be saying it is no good since it has less power and is slower than this that and the other thing.

The exact same thing happened with the first gen and history is bound to repeat itself with this one.

This is where I disagree. I would agree with your statement, as it's valid because what happened with the last gen car, but the new car keeps up with the new GTI's, and Veloster N's, are folks generally complaining those cars don't make enough power? If not, I don't think the general consensus will complain about the GR86.

I personally loved the styling of the FT86/BRZ, but the being a bit underpowered steered me to hold off and keep my M3. But the new car hits the sweet spot, for me at least, and I'm trying to get one now.

And folks who only care about 0-60 and all out speed, they'll be looking at tesla. The latest Hagerty video compared the cts blackbird to a tesla plaid, and it wasn't even close. The game for chasing all out speed is done, EV's won, what's left is the driving experience. Cars like the cts blackbird, or gr86 twins will have their niche.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Robertw

This is where I disagree. I would agree with your statement, as it's valid because what happened with the last gen car, but the new car keeps up with the new GTI's, and Veloster N's, are folks generally complaining those cars don't make enough power? If not, I don't think the general consensus will complain about the GR86.

I personally loved the styling of the FT86/BRZ, but the being a bit underpowered steered me to hold off and keep my M3. But the new car hits the sweet spot, for me at least, and I'm trying to get one now.

And folks who only care about 0-60 and all out speed, they'll be looking at tesla. The latest Hagerty video compared the cts blackbird to a tesla plaid, and it wasn't even close. The game for chasing all out speed is done, EV's won, what's left is the driving experience. Cars like the cts blackbird, or gr86 twins will have their niche.

You are looking at it in a rational manner. The first gen were very close to their competitors yet they earned the rep that they were far slower. The fact that they have crept up a tiny amount in the hierarchy will not matter to many of the the people that didn't like them then.
What happens in the next year or so when the Miata or N get's an upgrade? Both are due. The new Z will show up and all of a sudden it will be compared to the Twins. Even though not a great comparison it will happen.
It is wonderful that so many individuals are happy with the improvement but if the internet as a whole stated that the first gen "needed" 300HP they are not all of a sudden going to be happy with 228. Yes it is a numbers game (which I have always fought against) and they don't tell the whole story but it is what the bench racers will run with.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You are looking at it in a rational manner. The first gen were very close to their competitors yet they earned the rep that they were far slower. The fact that they have crept up a tiny amount in the hierarchy will not matter to many of the the people that didn't like them then.
What happens in the next year or so when the Miata or N get's an upgrade? Both are due. The new Z will show up and all of a sudden it will be compared to the Twins. Even though not a great comparison it will happen.
It is wonderful that so many individuals are happy with the improvement but if the internet as a whole stated that the first gen "needed" 300HP they are not all of a sudden going to be happy with 228. Yes it is a numbers game (which I have always fought against) and they don't tell the whole story but it is what the bench racers will run with.

I believe the FT86 was a bit slower than the GTI and other competitors like the Miata. The new car is quicker than the miata, GTI, and right there with the veloster N.

But I understand the point you're trying to make, I just don't think it's relevant anymore. You mention it's a minor bump in power, but in reality it's almost a second quicker to 60 than the previous gen, to me that's significant. Plus if the GR had anymore power it would be competing with the supra 2.0, and to be fair at the GR's current specs, it probably already does.

[Yoshoobaroo]

On what planet is a 40 whp delta minor? More and more dynos are coming out right now and they’re all showing the same thing, the engine gained 40 whp where it counts.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

On what planet is a 40 whp delta minor? More and more dynos are coming out right now and they’re all showing the same thing, the engine gained 40 whp where it counts.

Yeah idk how people are concluding the power bump is "minor" lol.

fist gen with tune, header, catback, pump gas: 177 whp and 134 ft/lbs

2nd gen bone stock : 214 whp and 175 ft/lbs

Results on a mustang dyno

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

On what planet is a 40 whp delta minor? More and more dynos are coming out right now and they’re all showing the same thing, the engine gained 40 whp where it counts.

If you take the lowest numbers from the old and the highest of the new it looks great.
I still have a hard time believing a 14HP drivetrain loss on the 22s compared to the alleged 40 to 50HP loss on the 13s. It is magical if true.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

If you take the lowest numbers from the old and the highest of the new it looks great.
I still have a hard time believing a 14HP drivetrain loss on the 22s compared to the alleged 40 to 50HP loss on the 13s. It is magical if true.

What if the listed hp is under rated lol

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Robertw

Yeah idk how people are concluding the power bump is "minor" lol.

Considering that the expectation of many was 300 and the published numbers is 228 it is indeed minor.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Robertw

What if the listed hp is under rated lol

What id the dyno readings are falsified?

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Considering that the expectation of many was 300 and the published numbers is 228 it is indeed minor.

I don't think anyone is talking about "previous expectations", just discusing what's actually there and how the new car compares to the out going model and other competing cars in the segment...

[Stonehorsw]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

As mentioned already by Tcoat. Scion FR-S / Subaru BRZ were named a 10best car by Car and Driver magazine back in 2013. So, yes it was getting a lot of praise by the media before the "not enough power" thing popped up. Performance figures at that time were pretty much impressive too.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-cars-feature/

Gen1 cars are amazing, but your statement is not true. See below cut and paste from your link:

“ With only 200 horses and a 6400-rpm torque peak, there's no power cushion to adjust the *mid-corner pace”

Praise was there, but “not enough power” was too.