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Old 11-19-2021, 01:48 PM   #71
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Is my understanding correct that you've never directly measured heat/temperature of the brakes,
but only visually estimated the heat based on wear patterns and overall wear over time?
Temp paint measured on mine, visual only for mine to my friends car comparison.
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:50 PM   #72
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Temp paint measured on mine, visual only for mine to my friends car comparison.
So no hard data to support the theory that your friend generated more heat rather than simply more wear?
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Old 11-19-2021, 03:09 PM   #73
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So, @Goingnowherefast, I would like to know why is there more heat on his car, or why was there more heat in mine before I got better (and ultimately went much faster) at managing ABS. Im always up for learning something.
The problem is that's just simply not how you conduct testing. There's too many variables. That's why legitimate brake manufactures run tests on brake dynos dictated by the SAE where you can control all the variables in question. It's not really worth comparing anecdotal evidence from two completely different cars, with two completely different powertrains, from two completely different drivers etc. That's what we call in the engineering world "garbage data" and we throw it in the trash.

Example: Me and my buddy both have BRZ's. I go through pads faster then him. Simple conclusion based on anecdotes? Oh well I must be harder on the brakes or be misdriving them. Conclusion after looking at the data? I'm like 5 seconds faster than him everywhere on track including a way higher V max before each braking zone etc.

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So no hard data to support the theory that your friend generated more heat rather than simply more wear?
This. Anecdotal claims are pretty meaningless. Especially with so many variables at play.
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Old 11-19-2021, 07:38 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
The problem is that's just simply not how you conduct testing. There's too many variables. That's why legitimate brake manufactures run tests on brake dynos dictated by the SAE where you can control all the variables in question. It's not really worth comparing anecdotal evidence from two completely different cars, with two completely different powertrains, from two completely different drivers etc. That's what we call in the engineering world "garbage data" and we throw it in the trash.

Example: Me and my buddy both have BRZ's. I go through pads faster then him. Simple conclusion based on anecdotes? Oh well I must be harder on the brakes or be misdriving them. Conclusion after looking at the data? I'm like 5 seconds faster than him everywhere on track including a way higher V max before each braking zone etc.



This. Anecdotal claims are pretty meaningless. Especially with so many variables at play.
Dude, if you’re going to quote the procedure, at least use the right one. Tokico would run JASO testing.
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Old 11-19-2021, 08:21 PM   #75
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Dude, if you’re going to quote the procedure, at least use the right one. Tokico would run JASO testing.
What are you talking about? Tokico? The shock company? Lol
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:37 PM   #76
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What are you talking about? Tokico? The shock company? Lol
Tokico is a long term partner for Subaru on Brakes. They did develop Legacy, Impreza amongst other brakes.

It is not well known in the west, but it is a fairly good brake supplier in Japan.

Do you have a different information for the BRZ? I thought that the corner was carry over from Wrx (front) and Legacy (rear), and assumed that was Tokico due to that (did not check)

But I see that you’re making pretty bold statements from an area that is not your expertise. You are a powertrain engineer, right? How many yrs of experience?


PS: doesn’t matter if it was Tokico (yes makes brakes!), Sumitomo, Akebono or Nissin. They would still run JASO, not SAE.

And you could ask you friend about the differences on how oems deals with the balance between dyno and vehicle testing.

Ask about K2xx vs K2xx PPV, being both from a major manufacturer in Us
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Old 11-19-2021, 09:39 PM   #77
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Some pics of Tokico Subaru brakes (Legacy)

.
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Old 11-19-2021, 10:27 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
The problem is that's just simply not how you conduct testing. There's too many variables. That's why legitimate brake manufactures run tests on brake dynos dictated by the SAE where you can control all the variables in question. It's not really worth comparing anecdotal evidence from two completely different cars, with two completely different powertrains, from two completely different drivers etc. That's what we call in the engineering world "garbage data" and we throw it in the trash.

Example: Me and my buddy both have BRZ's. I go through pads faster then him. Simple conclusion based on anecdotes? Oh well I must be harder on the brakes or be misdriving them. Conclusion after looking at the data? I'm like 5 seconds faster than him everywhere on track including a way higher V max before each braking zone etc.



This. Anecdotal claims are pretty meaningless. Especially with so many variables at play.
I know anecdotal "data" is pretty meaningless. But I stumble across a lot of garbage on the internet, and I tend to rely on my experiences more than "internet data". I didnt do back to back tests, otherwise I woudlnt even be asking for more info here. But I did notice less heat and wear on my own car, the less I was getting into ABS territory. Same car, same driver (albeit with more experience every time), same power train, same brakes, same track, different day. So yeah there are a lot of variables, but never have I personnally seen a case of someone is overheating the brakes while driving properly but I see people (including myself previously) overheating the shit of brakes while being deep into ABS.

The theory should dictate that its the same heat, and ABS or not does not matter, why would I observe such a bias towards ABS generating more heat? Im not bashing for the sake of bashing, just curious as to why and is there some extra energy that is introduced in the system that is not accounted for here (aside from vehicle speed and mass).
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Old 11-20-2021, 12:58 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk View Post
The theory should dictate that its the same heat, and ABS or not does not matter, why would I observe such a bias towards ABS generating more heat? Im not bashing for the sake of bashing, just curious as to why and is there some extra energy that is introduced in the system that is not accounted for here (aside from vehicle speed and mass).
Now that I think about it... the pulsation of the pads due to operation of ABS involves massive force and some movement.
Force over displacement is work, and that work can only go into heat.
That's where the additional heat might come from?
The absolute amounts of displacement should be minimal (how much do the pads compress?),
but given the high frequency (modern ABS operate at 10+ Hz, IIRC?) and massive overall force, this can be a non-trivial total amount.
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Old 11-20-2021, 10:06 AM   #80
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The op is going through brake pads much quicker that we would expect. Decent track pads (almost any brand) are designed for track related braking forces. Many of us are running stock calipers and abs without excessive pad wear. Another way to look at this problem might be to ask, hypothetically, what would you have to do to intentionally ruin a set of pads? Too much left foot braking?
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Old 11-20-2021, 02:38 PM   #81
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Well this escalated quickly....
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:05 PM   #82
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I don't think it's been covered in the 6 pages here but.. Sometimes being slow can be harder on pads.



Before I was "fast", I had braking issues because I braked early and spent too much time on the brake pedal. As I got faster, even though I was converting more speed into the heat, I was spending much less time on the pedal. Less time on the pedal = less heat soak into the system and pad material and more time dissipating heat.
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Old 11-26-2021, 10:15 AM   #83
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I don't think it's been covered in the 6 pages here but.. Sometimes being slow can be harder on pads.

Before I was "fast", I had braking issues because I braked early and spent too much time on the brake pedal. As I got faster, even though I was converting more speed into the heat, I was spending much less time on the pedal. Less time on the pedal = less heat soak into the system and pad material and more time dissipating heat.
Exactly. Anybody who thinks going faster is harder on the brakes, isn't done developing as a driver. Learning how to set up for corners and get more OFF of the brakes sooner will yield faster lap times while putting less heat in the brakes and giving longer pad life.
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Old 11-26-2021, 10:49 AM   #84
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When my car understeered more I was trail braking more and pads didn't last as long.
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