follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > FT86CLUB Shared Forum > FR-S / BRZ vs....

FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-19-2021, 05:16 AM   #141
MrSkubi
Senior Member
 
MrSkubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Drives: 17 CWP BRZ ,21 PB GR Yaris
Location: Poland
Posts: 103
Thanks: 240
Thanked 83 Times in 49 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
At 3227 lb. and 493hp, it's a perfectly acceptable modern mid-engine Corvette (unlike the C8!).

I'd be WAY more impressed if Porsche would produce a legit lightweight sports car again. I'd rather have a smaller 2600-lb. Cayman with half the horsepower versus another oversized/overweight megaperforming ego-stroker like this. If I wanted to go superfast at the track, I'd get a formula car or sports racer and go faster, have more fun, for less $$$.
It's quite funny that bigger GT3 should be considerably heavier car but apparently there is about 20 kg of difference between both base models.
MrSkubi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 07:15 AM   #142
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 3,999
Thanks: 971
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,691 Posts
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuds View Post
Soooo... A BRZ/GR86 with no interior/ac/etc then?
???
Mazda builds a 2-seat 2350 lb. sports car, and Toyobaru builds a 2800 lb. 4-seat sports/sporty 2+2 coupe, both with full interiors/ac/etc., for reasonable $$$.
Porsche could easily build a dedicated 2-seat sports car, with full interior/ac/etc., at 2600 lb. or less.

Last edited by ZDan; 11-19-2021 at 08:29 AM.
ZDan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 07:45 AM   #143
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 3,999
Thanks: 971
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,691 Posts
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSkubi View Post
It's quite funny that bigger GT3 should be considerably heavier car but apparently there is about 20 kg of difference between both base models.
Huh, Porsche site shows the GT3 about 50 lb. *lighter* than the GT4. While a base 911 is ~300 lb. heavier than a base 718.
ZDan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 08:23 AM   #144
MrSkubi
Senior Member
 
MrSkubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Drives: 17 CWP BRZ ,21 PB GR Yaris
Location: Poland
Posts: 103
Thanks: 240
Thanked 83 Times in 49 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Huh, Porsche site shows the GT3 about 50 lb. *lighter* than the GT4. While a base 911 is ~300 lb. heavier than a base 718.
Looks like you're right !
3227 lbs for GT4RS and 3164 lbs for GT3 (both US market base models)
MrSkubi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 09:07 AM   #145
Spuds
The Dictater
 
Spuds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Drives: '13 Red Scion FRS
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 7,668
Thanks: 21,160
Thanked 9,728 Times in 4,898 Posts
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
???
Mazda builds a 2-seat 2350 lb. sports car, and Toyobaru builds a 2800 lb. 4-seat sports/sporty 2+2 coupe, both with full interiors/ac/etc., for reasonable $$$.
Porsche could easily build a dedicated 2-seat sports car, with full interior/ac/etc., at 2600 lb. or less.
I was saying if you remove the interior and such from a gen2, you basically have a 2600lb sports car with half the hp of the gt4. You don't really need Porsche to make it.

Or you can supercharge a Miata.
Spuds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2021, 09:17 AM   #146
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 3,999
Thanks: 971
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,691 Posts
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuds View Post
I was saying if you remove the interior and such from a gen2, you basically have a 2600lb sports car with half the hp of the gt4. You don't really need Porsche to make it.

Or you can supercharge a Miata.
Well, I don't want a daily-driver with no interior! Also, 45F/55R weight distribution >> 55F/45R for a rear-drive sports car. And I don't want a roadster, want fixed-roof coupe.

But anyway, point is, I think Porsche could and should make a legit smaller, lighter-weight sports car. Too bad they're not really interested in that any more, although that's what made them great in the first place.
ZDan is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Ohio Enthusiast (11-19-2021), Sport-Tech (11-25-2021), Spuds (11-19-2021), strat61caster (11-20-2021), WolfpackS2k (11-29-2021)
Old 11-19-2021, 09:28 AM   #147
Spuds
The Dictater
 
Spuds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Drives: '13 Red Scion FRS
Location: MD, USA
Posts: 7,668
Thanks: 21,160
Thanked 9,728 Times in 4,898 Posts
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Well, I don't want a daily-driver with no interior! Also, 45F/55R weight distribution >> 55F/45R for a rear-drive sports car. And I don't want a roadster, want fixed-roof coupe.

But anyway, point is, I think Porsche could and should make a legit smaller, lighter-weight sports car. Too bad they're not really interested in that any more, although that's what made them great in the first place.
I agree it would be great if they did. I'd probably buy it.
Spuds is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Spuds For This Useful Post:
ZDan (11-19-2021)
Old 11-19-2021, 11:53 AM   #148
Coaster
Senior Member
 
Coaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: Civic
Location: NY
Posts: 193
Thanks: 72
Thanked 80 Times in 54 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Well, I don't want a daily-driver with no interior! Also, 45F/55R weight distribution >> 55F/45R for a rear-drive sports car. And I don't want a roadster, want fixed-roof coupe.

But anyway, point is, I think Porsche could and should make a legit smaller, lighter-weight sports car. Too bad they're not really interested in that any more, although that's what made them great in the first place.
It wouldn't sell really well...only to a small group of people. Sports cars in general are decreasing in numbers as SUV/ crossovers and minivans increase. Ford is an example.

There is one vehicle that is light weight (sub 2600 lb), RWD, and 50/50 eight balance... T50.
Coaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2021, 12:33 AM   #149
serialk11r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Drives: '06 AM V8V Coupe
Location: United States of America
Posts: 5,279
Thanks: 285
Thanked 1,074 Times in 759 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
At 3227 lb. and 493hp, it's a perfectly acceptable modern mid-engine Corvette (unlike the C8!).

I'd be WAY more impressed if Porsche would produce a legit lightweight sports car again. I'd rather have a smaller 2600-lb. Cayman with half the horsepower versus another oversized/overweight megaperforming ego-stroker like this. If I wanted to go superfast at the track, I'd get a formula car or sports racer and go faster, have more fun, for less $$$.
I kind of wonder how the platform got so heavy, given the 986 is what 2 inches shorter and half an inch narrower? Is the floor twice as stiff? Is there 100lbs more sound deadening and carpet? How did it go from ~2950lbs to 3200lbs with all the extra aluminum?

If Porsche took out everything that makes a 718 heavier than the 986, did all the aluminum bits they added over the years to get the car lighter, then put in a bespoke small block H6 (or V6, I don't care) kind of like a Mazda K series and a smaller and lighter trans to match, it would get to your ask of 2600lbs. A 9000rpm 2.5L engine would produce around 310hp which is perfect. You can wind it out all the time without hitting 80mph.
serialk11r is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to serialk11r For This Useful Post:
ZDan (11-20-2021)
Old 11-20-2021, 11:35 AM   #150
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 3,999
Thanks: 971
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,691 Posts
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
I kind of wonder how the platform got so heavy, given the 986 is what 2 inches shorter and half an inch narrower? Is the floor twice as stiff? Is there 100lbs more sound deadening and carpet? How did it go from ~2950lbs to 3200lbs with all the extra aluminum?
Current car is MUCH bigger, more voluminous, than 986/987. The car is physically a lot bulkier even if length/width/height aren't tremendously greater. Also they went to 1" taller wheels *and tire diameter* all around with the 981. IMO to try to disguise how much BULKIER that car was vs. 987!

That said the base 718 is "only" about 3050 lb. IIRC. Where the GT3 is quite a bit lighter than a normal 911, the GT4 is quite a bit heavier than a normal 718.

Regarding stiffness, they build in a ton of that into the lower chassis for the open-top Boxster, which means the Cayman is WAY stiffer than it needs to be (same for 911). If it were a dedicated fixed-roof coupe design, they could lose a lot of weight while maintaining necessary chassis stiffness for a high-performance sports car.

I remember how my 987.2 Cayman felt like a bank-vault in terms of stiffness. Way overkill...

Quote:
If Porsche took out everything that makes a 718 heavier than the 986, did all the aluminum bits they added over the years to get the car lighter, then put in a bespoke small block H6 (or V6, I don't care) kind of like a Mazda K series and a smaller and lighter trans to match, it would get to your ask of 2600lbs. A 9000rpm 2.5L engine would produce around 310hp which is perfect. You can wind it out all the time without hitting 80mph.
That'd be about perfect! But it should be physically smaller too. Also, make that 2.5/310hp engine a V4, they have v4 heritage! Flat engines aren't the best idea IMO. For cars or motorcycles!
ZDan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2021, 08:18 PM   #151
strat61caster
-
 
strat61caster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,046
Thanks: 13,306
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,800 Posts
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
But anyway, point is, I think Porsche could and should make a legit smaller, lighter-weight sports car. Too bad they're not really interested in that any more, although that's what made them great in the first place.
??? Porsche always made GT cars, only marginally lighter then the lightest pony cars. Their 'light sporty and cheap' cars (912/914/924/944) were flops up until the Boxster.

'66 Base Mustang: ~2,600 lbs
'66 Base 911: ~2,400 lbs

'21 Base 911: ~3,400 lbs
'21 Base Mustang: ~3,500 lbs

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
ineedyourdiddly
strat61caster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2021, 07:56 AM   #152
Ernest72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Drives: 16 Silver BRZ, 04 Silver WRX wagon
Location: Rockland county, NY
Posts: 1,262
Thanks: 136
Thanked 680 Times in 391 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
What we need is 15 of us at 10k a piece to buy one Gt4RS and share it. We each get it for 3.5 weeks a year.
Ernest72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2021, 11:21 AM   #153
EAGLE5
Dismember
 
EAGLE5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: 2013 Red Scion FR-S
Location: Castro Valley
Posts: 5,474
Thanks: 2,121
Thanked 3,958 Times in 2,135 Posts
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest72 View Post
What we need is 15 of us at 10k a piece to buy one Gt4RS and share it. We each get it for 3.5 weeks a year.
More like 20 of us. You jst need a better job.
EAGLE5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2021, 02:11 PM   #154
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 3,999
Thanks: 971
Thanked 3,164 Times in 1,691 Posts
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster View Post
??? Porsche always made GT cars, only marginally lighter then the lightest pony cars. Their 'light sporty and cheap' cars (912/914/924/944) were flops up until the Boxster.
"Always"? Porsche existed prior to the 911...
Porsche made its name in the 50s into the 60s racing small light-weight race cars that punched above their category and frequently took overall wins against bigger/heavier and much more powerful cars in faster classes.


Quote:
'66 Base Mustang: ~2,600 lbs
'66 Base 911: ~2,400 lbs

'21 Base 911: ~3,400 lbs
'21 Base Mustang: ~3,500 lb
FWIW the 1965 Porsche 356 was still under 2000 lb....

Data I have shows a V8 64 1/2 Mustang being ~2800 lb.
'64 1/2 - '66 were the only pony cars of the 60s to weigh less than 3000, by 1967 they had bulked up, and by the end of "gen 1" were up to ~3400+ lb. in 1973. Other "pony cars" of the era were 3200 up to 3800 lb. For sure 2600 lb. isn't a "typical pony car weight", not by a long shot...

1973 911 was still around 2400 lb, . And it was the *heavyweight* Porsche, the 914 was ~2100 lb.

Honestly, 60s/early-70s 911s were more like 800-1200 lb. lighter than "pony cars". And the *lightweight* Porsche model (when it existed) was something like 1200-1500 lb. lighter.

Mustang got lightweight again with the Mustang II (luxified Pinto), but of course that didn't keep it from being an utterly crap car... And still at least 400 lb. heavier than the 911.

A better, more consistent barometer for the 911 would be the Corvette. ~3300 lb. for a 1968 C3 all the way up to 2013 C6. During that era the 911 went from being a good 1000 lb. lighter to being the same weight.

Personally, I don't think even the "grand touring" 911 should weigh as much as a Corvette, and certainly the smallest/lightest-weight Porsche should be much much lighter.

But anyway, that's just, like, my opinion man...
ZDan is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
bcj (11-30-2021), Ohio Enthusiast (11-21-2021)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.