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Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


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Old 09-28-2021, 12:18 PM   #15
NoHaveMSG
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Mac struts don't have a camber curve. It's so small that you can consider it zero.
I know, "camber curve" is just a term to explain camber change during travel, as evident by you knowing what I am talking about.
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Old 09-28-2021, 12:40 PM   #16
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+1 moderately stiffer front bar does not add understeer, just helps control the roll since like 500# of the cars mass is right between the front struts it needs all the help it can get. Yeah the textbooks say it shouldn't work but
A. Any good textbook caveats with real world data trumping theory
B. You're assuming the factory is making choices for 10/10ths competition driving. They aren't.

Still on OE rear bar with a stiffer front for several years now. I only plan on going back to oe front if I sell the car.

Edit: if you're happy with your cars balance with stock sways, great! Save yourself a couple hundred bucks and dealing with the crappy endlinks that most Swaybars come with. If you feel like it needs a tweak, come on in, the waters fine.
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Old 09-28-2021, 12:58 PM   #17
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Let's talk about what happens when you add a bigger front swaybar and keep the rear the same size (and no other changes).

For a given corner at a given speed:
  • A larger proportion of the weight transfer now happens at the front, meaning more evenly loaded rear tires and potentially increased understeer.
  • Less body roll, meaning you're less likely to be on the bumpstops as well as making the most of the front camber you do have dialed in (especially with a mac strut car with crap/no camber curve).

The argument is that the change in lateral load distribution in a steady state corner is more than negated by the second part. Sort of like you get -1 front grip point from the first part but +2 front grip points from the 2nd part, resulting in a net +1 front grip points.

That's the argument at least, and it has been somewhat popular approach on Subarus (maybe even more so wtih the AWD ones).

It's an oversimplification (grip points aren't a thing), but yes sometimes a larger front bar does things that don't feel like they fit the textbook expectation. It depends on the rest of the car's set up but can definitely be helpful. I don't like saying it always works and is always good 100% of the time, but can be useful and is worth considering.

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Old 09-28-2021, 01:18 PM   #18
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I’ve made tons of different experiments with both coilovers and stock suspensions (2017 base Showa): for me best one for max grip with 180Tw tires is 22mm front and OEM 15mm rear. For low grip on the road (no track) and medium rates (350/400lbs) I prefer stock bars and even no rear bar for the winter.
My ride height is around -30mm front and -22 to -27 rear, I also have Kw Clubsport camber plates like yours and these help a lot with bump travel.

Keep the front stiff is critical on these cars, as for other strut cars, Team Shirmer Bmw’s are another example, recipe is the same, tons of camber probably around -4 to -5 and huge front bar…same for MR Gt3rs.
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Old 09-28-2021, 08:08 PM   #19
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Edit: if you're happy with your cars balance with stock sways, great! Save yourself a couple hundred bucks and dealing with the crappy endlinks that most Swaybars come with. If you feel like it needs a tweak, come on in, the waters fine.
Was looking at the whiteline 22/16 kit with endlinks and bracing. What are the quality of the whiteline endlinks?
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Old 09-28-2021, 09:00 PM   #20
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Was looking at the whiteline 22/16 kit with endlinks and bracing. What are the quality of the whiteline endlinks?
They're ok, make sure you get a good torque on the nuts that attach to the Swaybar and strut/arm, it might be worth locktiting them, I had issues with them staying torqued but if those nuts stay tight and you don't have camber plates they're good. If you do have camber plates you may have rubbing between the end link and inner fender well at the strut, the ball joint is pretty beefy.
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Old 09-29-2021, 06:19 AM   #21
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What are your shock settings?
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Old 09-29-2021, 03:52 PM   #22
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What are your shock settings?
I've tried various settings - ended up a little on the "stiffer" side than the initial track recommendation. Depending on the track I vary a click or two.

I'm trying to tune out some understeer in long, steady-state cornering. Shock settings don't seem to change that, but I didn't expect them to.
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Old 09-29-2021, 07:07 PM   #23
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I've tried various settings - ended up a little on the "stiffer" side than the initial track recommendation. Depending on the track I vary a click or two.

I'm trying to tune out some understeer in long, steady-state cornering. Shock settings don't seem to change that, but I didn't expect them to.
Rake. Easiest to try and typically the last thing we use for fine tuning. In your case, raise rear.
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Old 09-30-2021, 09:06 AM   #24
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Rake. Easiest to try and typically the last thing we use for fine tuning. In your case, raise rear.
Understood. Was just answering cueball89's question about my shock settings.

Thanks for the input/help everyone.
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Old 11-08-2021, 12:15 PM   #25
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They're ok, make sure you get a good torque on the nuts that attach to the Swaybar and strut/arm, it might be worth locktiting them, I had issues with them staying torqued but if those nuts stay tight and you don't have camber plates they're good. If you do have camber plates you may have rubbing between the end link and inner fender well at the strut, the ball joint is pretty beefy.
First track weekend with the Whiteline front sway and endlinks. Driver side endlink attach to the swaybar came loose EVERY session. I had used blue locktite when installing and had really torqued them down.

Guess I'll try getting putting another nut on them as a jam-nut to see if that holds.

Diagnosing in the paddock is a PITA. Just lifting one side with my jack put enough force on the sway bar to make the end link feel tight. No amount of tugging would make it move or make noise. But I borrowed another drivers jack and raised the whole front end. Once the bar/endlinks were unloaded, it was really obvious the drivers side was loose and would rattle when tugged.

Thanks for the heads-up. Tried the loctite and it wasn't sufficient, but at least it gave me a good idea of what to check to find the suspension rattle.
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Old 11-08-2021, 12:22 PM   #26
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Guess I'll try getting putting another nut on them as a jam-nut to see if that holds.
This is what I do and it works pretty well.
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Old 11-08-2021, 01:27 PM   #27
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You definitely want to tighten your end links with the suspension loaded.
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Old 11-08-2021, 04:38 PM   #28
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This is what I do and it works pretty well.
You don't happen to know off hand what the thread size and pitch for those are, do you?
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