Brake upgrade needed when going to 18s?

[FR-Slide]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

For reference, cost analysis of a BBK by a member.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94608

I love this thread, the performance wasn't the issue, it was a cost and maintenance reduction, and it really only makes sense if you're eating multiple sets of high end pads per year. This guy was ecstatic that the kit pays for itself after 27 track days, my 86 probably won't see that many track days total until I'm over 7 years into owning it, and I currently don't have the skill level to eat a set of high quality pads over 4 track days yet.

Aside from track consumable costs the other advantage is weight, but the number of truly competitive 86's out there looking for a few pounds of weight reduction is minuscule, and those people already know who they are.

This is definitely interesting, I love seeing ROI mapped out on any purchase/investment. But, like yourself, it would take me years of time to really "justify" a BBK, given how little non-street use my car sees.

But hey, everyone needs goals

[Irace86]

Any disadvantages to upgrading pads? Like does it prevent modulation? On my Ducati the EBC Sintered HH pads grip more, but are harder to modulate. They tend to grab and not slide as well, so it will initiate the ABS far more often. Is it a problem? Not on an ABS bike, but that could cause increases in slide outs on motorcycles. How about for our cars? Is too much grab a bad thing?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Irace86

Any disadvantages to upgrading pads? Like does it prevent modulation? On my Ducati the EBC Sintered HH pads grip more, but are harder to modulate. They tend to grab and not slide as well, so it will initiate the ABS far more often. Is it a problem? Not on an ABS bike, but that could cause increases in slide outs on motorcycles. How about for our cars? Is too much grab a bad thing?

Depends on the pad, it's like saying redheads are better than blondes, the world isn't black and white and there's no pad A > pad B statement that won't get someone angry or defensive. Some track pads have great modulation capabilities, some street pads have crap modulation.

For most people, temperature capability vs. noise and dust are the bigger concerns as all the major players are making pads that are not too difficult to modulate. I'd run XP10's all the time but I don't get heat in them regularly enough to maintain a transfer layer, I found them to be great in the cold morning commute, autox, and track, just about everywhere performance wise, but they were too noisy once they had some street miles on them. Some guys can get them hot on a regular basis (more aggressive street driving, canyon runs, or maybe tracking >2x a month) and keep them quiet (or don't care about the dust and noise). Some people would never think about running XP10's on the street for fear of the "lack of cold bite" and I would understand someone thinking they were too 'grabby' for a street pad.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23680

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Most people do it because it's a significant cost reduction if you're consistently tracking.

The ones who actually track are doing it for that reason, but I'd venture to guess that a significant portion of BBKs purchased for the Toyobaru are put on cars that will likely never see track time.

[Toyarzee]

Originally Posted by Irace86

Any disadvantages to upgrading pads? Like does it prevent modulation? On my Ducati the EBC Sintered HH pads grip more, but are harder to modulate. They tend to grab and not slide as well, so it will initiate the ABS far more often. Is it a problem? Not on an ABS bike, but that could cause increases in slide outs on motorcycles. How about for our cars? Is too much grab a bad thing?

In my limited experience I would say no, but I suppose it depends on the driver/driving style. For a short bit and 2 track days, I ran PMU CR'S with stock tires. Yes you can engage abs sooner and it is too much brake for the tire, but I actually enjoyed that feel over the opposite sensation. You just adjust your brake foot accordingly. Now I'm daily'ing the club racers on NT01'S, because every day is race day!

Jk sorta, I don't drive much unless it's to tracks or canyons with the occasional errand in between...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

The ones who actually track are doing it for that reason, but I'd venture to guess that a significant portion of BBKs purchased for the Toyobaru are put on cars that will likely never see track time.

I think the vast majority of the customers that buy a BBK from CSG are using it for performance reasons; they all purchase high performance pads, so unless they're so hardcore about posing that they'll deal with the noise and dust of an unbedded pad....

The hard parkers generally buy cheaper stuff like Rotora or K-Sport.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86

Any disadvantages to upgrading pads? Like does it prevent modulation? On my Ducati the EBC Sintered HH pads grip more, but are harder to modulate. They tend to grab and not slide as well, so it will initiate the ABS far more often. Is it a problem? Not on an ABS bike, but that could cause increases in slide outs on motorcycles. How about for our cars? Is too much grab a bad thing?

Try a different compound. Every compound has different behavior, and you just have to try different pads until you find the one you like.

There is no right or wrong with pads, unless you're using an inappropriate pad for your application. The rest is all preference.

[FR-Slide]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

The ones who actually track are doing it for that reason, but I'd venture to guess that a significant portion of BBKs purchased for the Toyobaru are put on cars that will likely never see track time.

This was my basic sentiment, that 90% of the people who mod their vehicles are doing so for their own amusement/enjoyment or for the street cred/IG follows. This would be people who source parts from eBay, NOT people who use real race shops and vendors like CSG, FT86SF, etc.

Being that I'm not a track-rat, I feel I didn't yet earn the need for a BBK (same reason I used springs instead of coilovers), which is why I wanted to check with the more experienced folks about using pads and fluid/lines to get my brakes back in check. I don't want to out-mod and out-spend my admittedly novice driving ability.

That said, a big thanks to the other 10% of people who DO use their vehicles and support the people and companies who make quality products, since it allows us all to enjoy the platform that much more

[Irace86]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Try a different compound. Every compound has different behavior, and you just have to try different pads until you find the one you like.

There is no right or wrong with pads, unless you're using an inappropriate pad for your application. The rest is all preference.

Good advice. Unfortunately I don't run through pads often enough to be able to compare, so I went will the crowd. There shouldn't be full lock on medium pressure with rapid application, but that's what I got. Oh well

[Apex-Apex]

Brembo Clubsport BBK is all you need.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Toyarzee

In my limited experience I would say no, but I suppose it depends on the driver/driving style. For a short bit and 2 track days, I ran PMU CR'S with stock tires. Yes you can engage abs sooner and it is too much brake for the tire, but I actually enjoyed that feel over the opposite sensation. You just adjust your brake foot accordingly. Now I'm daily'ing the club racers on NT01'S, because every day is race day!

Jk sorta, I don't drive much unless it's to tracks or canyons with the occasional errand in between...

@Irace86 This has been my experience as well. I've tried about 4 different pads on this car and none have been so grabby as to lack modulation, or so lacking in cold bite as to feel dangerous. They've all been slightly different in their own ways, but it's never been an issue adjusting my braking slightly to compensate. Unless you're upgrading to something extreme (for example, Wilwood BP30's on a BBK), it shouldn't be an issue at all.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86

Good advice. Unfortunately I don't run through pads often enough to be able to compare, so I went will the crowd. There shouldn't be full lock on medium pressure with rapid application, but that's what I got. Oh well

Selling lightly used pads is really, really easy.

I took this when I was trying a bunch of pads for myself....

[ZZT86]

Originally Posted by jasonojordan

From factory the stock brakes overpowered the stock tires. What your feeling now is the tires doing their job and now its the other way around. Your upgraded wheels and tires now have the grip to surpass the brakes.

The OP's question to brake feel now that he has 18's resonates with me also as I recently did the same & almost immediately felt the difference in that initial "bite" especially when cold, pedal feels slightly softer too. With me I went str8 from a worn stock Primacy 215/45/17 tyre on a stock 17x7+48 rim to a reasonably sticky 225/40/18 tyre & 18x8.5+42 rims square. Is it purely increased grip levels that makes the initial brake feel seem less effective than it used to be or is something else like the change in wheel offset and/or width, tyre is only 15mm wider than stock, the weight of new wheel/tyre package is slightly less than stock so it's not that, or is it the -1.5deg neg camber up front & a little more at the rear (the rear will soon be dialed back to -1deg ie stock).

The other day I flushed the brake fluid for something more able - Super Dot4 full synthetic 525F but I can't see any diff there atm. Car is babied mostly & is a DD. Very interesting topic.

Cheers

[Irace86]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Selling lightly used pads is really, really easy.

I took this when I was trying a bunch of pads for myself....

Thumbs up on the dedication to performance man.