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Old 09-22-2012, 07:01 AM   #645
Joe Schmoe
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Thanks for posting that video. The workings are very interesting.

Last edited by Joe Schmoe; 09-22-2012 at 07:19 AM. Reason: Editing out my SWAGs
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:07 AM   #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurospeed View Post
The problem here is not entirely the idle issue, the CEL, or the first year gremlins -- where others feel a need to constantly remind us of first year problems as if it never crossed our minds...

For me, the problems stemmed from a series of mismanaged events through dealer incompetence, lack of communication, and added confusion from Toyota/Subaru all wrapped up with utterly useless customer service. This then required (as another member, soconfoozed, eloquently put it) the need to micromanage everyone from the service department, to the owner/gm, to the rental car advisor, right back to the Scion corporate case manager.

Not to relive the pain or repeat what many others here have echoed, but daily calls, constant frustration, and confrontational, arrogant, and belligerent dealership management was absolutely no picnic. To top it all off, when I picked up the car, I received the bonus of added scratches in the door and hood paint along with scuffs on the interior door panel as if they were opening the door with their boots. Mind you, I had the car Opti-coated the night before the CEL and the paint and interior were perfect in those locations before I dropped it off at the dealer. Of course, the dealer claimed they didn't do it and apparently did not understand the term accountability either.

Now that I've had the car long enough to put on an additional 250 miles, I'm noticing other problems such as the "crickets," the interior clicking noise in the rear, rattling door panels, and the idle sometimes dips below 500 RPM in neutral with a light application of the accelerator. I believe I'm only missing the tail light condensation to complete the list.

Again, some of those issues may be easily remedied, but with the sour taste already in my mouth from the first round of pain, I'm not at all looking forward to dealing with Toyota. It's a shame too, as this was my first Toyota purchase and will likely be my last.

The 86 is a wonderful design, just very poorly executed.
It sounds like your issues stemmed from a bad dealer experience rather than a Toyota in general issue. We all know there are many bad dealers out there (for every car company). If you isolate your experience with the local dealer people vs. corporate how does it compare? Remember you have the right to go to any dealer you want for warranty issues, I would go do a different one next time.

I know many are frustrated with this issue but you can't be so quick to condemn the company as a whole who (as it sounds from other posts here) is working very hard to nail down the root cause of this issue.
To paraphrase:
"You can't hold a whole automotive company responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole automotive industry? And if the whole automotive industry is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our manufacturing companies in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!"
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Old 09-22-2012, 10:59 AM   #647
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The problem ... redacted.

The 86 is a wonderful design, just very poorly executed.
Funny, my experience is the exact opposite. The car is fantastic in every way.
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Old 09-22-2012, 11:49 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by 450hp/tonne View Post
This is all I can share (ignore that the video shows a V8):



Happy fishing ...
That video is immensely helpful.

Three questions (if you can answer them)

A) Is the implementation of the FA20's system "steplessly variable" or is there only one advance and one retard timing available?

B) I'm assuming the hydraulic pressure for actuation is travels down the camshaft; are the entry and egress points for the VVT system's oil closest to or farther away from the cam gear? (Edit: Or is the oil supply coming from the oil pump on the valve cover?)

C) What's the size of the largest particle which could safely work itself in and out of the system?
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Last edited by @Art_Mighty; 09-22-2012 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 09-22-2012, 12:05 PM   #649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurospeed View Post
...
The 86 is a wonderful design, just very poorly executed.

Or it's a poor design poorly executed. The engine is way too complicated for a back-to-basics inexpensive sports car.

(Or maybe the standard for what is complicated and what is not complicated has shifted in the last few years. I can't tell. But I think it's too complicated.)
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Old 09-22-2012, 12:56 PM   #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurospeed View Post
The 86 is a wonderful design, just very poorly executed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrk View Post
Or it's a poor design poorly executed. The engine is way too complicated for a back-to-basics inexpensive sports car.

(Or maybe the standard for what is complicated and what is not complicated has shifted in the last few years. I can't tell. But I think it's too complicated.)
If possible I would like to differ from both of you on this.

It's pretty clear to me that an engine management system which has to control the timing of spark, valve opening, fuel control over TWO independent injection systems up to 7500 RPM over a range of different operating conditions (both inside and outside the engine) is nearly as complex as you can make it. The only complexity inducing mechanism missing is a forced induction system of some kind (and that's coming).

Our cars have a 4-channel ABS / Traction Control / Stability management system with user controllable threasholds and deactivation. The stability management system actively monitors the car's yaw rate and then intervenes when the driver has exceeded it's allowable limits. There's a brake force distribution system which allows the car to vary brake force per-wheel based inputs from steering angle, brake force applied, and vehicle speed. You have an electrically driven, speed sensitieve, varable effort power steering system with it's motor embedded in the steering column itself so the engine can sit 10mm lower.

The ABS, Steering, Gauge Cluster, Air Bag, Tire Pressure Sensor, Audio System, Transmission, Engine (split up into the ECU and the FCU; Fuel Control Unit) all have independent computers which speak to each other in real time through the car's CAN BUS

Modern day cars are VERY complex but consider that 10 years ago getting all of this integrated into a car meant you were spending $60,000. The FR-S/GT 86/ BRZ are a value at twice the price. For everything they got wrong on this car, they got a lot right (just saying...)
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Last edited by @Art_Mighty; 09-22-2012 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:06 PM   #651
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Ohio lemon law is clear about 30 days total repair in first twelve months. I can't imagine it will be hard to surpass 30 days seeing how it will be 27 days on Monday.

8 different repair attempts.
3 attempts at the same problem.
1 attempt at something that is dangerous.
30 days total in shop time.

Chris
stupid question...is it 30 days or 30 "business" days. it's 4 repairs 24 mo. 18k miles here or 30 days/ just not specific about business days.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:08 PM   #652
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stupid question...is it 30 days or 30 "business" days. it's 4 repairs 24 mo. 18k miles here or 30 days/ just not specific about business days.
It depends on the state...
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:11 PM   #653
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After 3 weeks of my FR-S being in the shop, it is finally back in my hands and working perfectly =)

First they changed out the exhaust cam gear, which didn't fix it, so they changed out the ECU and that seemed to fix it. 300+ miles since the fix and still no problems!
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:39 PM   #654
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It depends on the state...
md isn't specific and I've been digging deep...but we can submit early for lemon so I guess it makes no difference. I just prefer specifics.
guess I'll just hope for a fix before it comes to this. I love this car, it's my 1st Subaru. I hope we all get what we want.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:39 PM   #655
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Sorry, I've been working on this very issue so that customers can party! Not getting much sleep and my wife thinks I've gotten grumpier


Sorry lol
As a consolation, of all the theories people are coming up with on their own, some of your most recent ideas have been the best thought out!
It's very much appreciated I'm sure by all of us here that you are working this exact problem and still communicating with us. Can't thank you enough! Hope for a speedy resolution so your wife won't forget who you are.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:45 PM   #656
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Well add me to the list for cel due to crankshaft postion sensor, engine management problems, and abs problems. Had 2500 miles. It's a fr-s. in shop now.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:48 PM   #657
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md isn't specific and I've been digging deep...but we can submit early for lemon so I guess it makes no difference. I just prefer specifics.
http://www.lemonlaw.com/maryland-lem...questions.html

If MD doesn't have specifics spelled out, I would assume you have 30 actual days. I would get in touch with a Lemon Law Attorney, file and then use that as leverage to get the outcome you want. My state (IL) specifically states 30 "business days" so that would mean I would have to be without the car for 6 weeks before that threshold passed.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:50 PM   #658
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Well add me to the list for cel due to crankshaft postion sensor, engine management problems, and abs problems. Had 2500 miles. It's a fr-s. in shop now.
Don't forget to give us the last six of the vin (with the last two numbers XX'ed out: example "6783XX")
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