FRS vs BMW e46 M3. Which to buy?

[arsen89]

Originally Posted by Gaiakai

Where are you finding E92 M3s for $35k? Or are you talking about the higher mileage/salvage ones?


OT
I'm actually cross-shopping these cars as well, BRZ/FR-S and the E46 M3. And right now it's so close that I'm going with a "whichever comes first" approach

And if the BRZ/FR-S had just a bit more power (250-300) it would be the only car on my short list right now. But I see the BRZ/FR-S as more of a clean canvas, like how the modern muscle cars are. They could use some improvement, and almost all the owners do just that - some do interior mods for more luxury, some add more power, or suspension work, basically they customize the car to get rid of the shortcomings the car has (for them). If/when I get my BRZ/FR-S, first thing I'm going to do is lower it (that horrible wheel gap is 4x4 territory), possibly get better brakes, and then add power. And go from there.

What I love about the M3 is that it's basically the complete package: looks, power, handling, luxury, sound, utility, aftermarket support, delicious 8000 rpm redline. And IMO that's what the Germans do best, most of the cars that go for OEM+ that I like are German cars: Z4M, E46 M3, 996/997, etc. You don't really have to do much customization for improvement because the E46 M3 is basically perfect as it is, you just have to keep it running. Not to mention it's the first RWD car I fell in love with when I "drove" it in NFS Most Wanted lol.

Compared to the BRZ/FR-S yes it is quite a bit heavier, but then again back when the BRZ didn't have my attention, I was looking at the new Mustang 5.0, Camaro SS, Evo, and a couple of other cars. The E46 M3 was one of the lightest on that list, and those were already great performing cars with more power.

This is all just IMO though.

Also keep in mind that 26k is plenty for a great condition M3, i.e. one where you won't have to worry about the really heavy maintenance for at least a year. (Fact, not just IMO)

I knew there were other people thinking about the same thing! haha. Yeah you pretty much summed it all up. If I did buy an e46 M3, I do believe I can get a pretty good example for 26k, and yeah I would not really do much to it.

On the FRS side. Agreed that thing did look like a 4x4 and springs or coilovers would be needed soon after the purchase haha. Like you said though, I think in the end that car would probably end up costing me more after all the upgrades, it really is just asking to get tuned.

Let me know what you end up getting!

[arsen89]

Originally Posted by kyolml

Well, I have both STI and E46 M3 LSB.

The brake job of $4k is a bit steep, probably doing at a BMW dealer. It's definetly an engineering acheivement, and S54 engine is a real testiment for road car engine limit. The S65 in E92 is not as radical or near the limit (shorter stroke). It's refined, luxurious, fast, has textbook FR and steering feel, (pretty good caster stock), and everything in one package. My STI might be faster and all that, but it's simpler and no where near as refined, or has the same engineering complexity in the package.

Because BMW cramped so much things into this car, a lot of things tend to break (I feel they skimmed the longevity testing to compesate their over-engineering cost). Everything on the car could break, which doesn't give you the confidence to do a long road trip. The alternator went out at 60k mile (I think heating was a factor in the engine bay location), VANO solenoid went out and engine light went on (I think the VANO is over-engineeringed too, which makes it fragile). Shocks, RTAB and all the bushing, etc...

I would say that as long as you have the time, and do everything yourself, the maintenance is not as bad as you would think. The parts are not that much more than my STI if you go after market (all the STI aftermarket parts are not much cheaper when compared it to BMW's). The only thing is that there are more parts can go wrong in the E46, which could be a bit more costly when added up together. M3forum has all the tips you need.

I never regret that I bought the M3 and I would do it again if I can choose, because it's really the pinnacle of BMW's engineering (more so than E9x IMHO).

Drive them both (good luck on FR-S/BRZ, might take forever), and only your heart can tell you which one you want.

Wow awesome comment man. Thanks, really insightful.

So jealous of that LSB. I Think I would be between an LSB or CB on Cinnamon. I have heard that VANOs can be a pain but I think that when you look at the big picture its a small price to pay for the engineering that went into these cars. I would think that if I do buy an e46 M3, I would probably keep it stock. I think the car is great as it is.

I really wish that I could have both, but life is all about choices sometimes haha. Im sure you worked hard for both those cars, wish I could have both also.

And true I need to test drive the FRS, but yeah who knows when that's going to happen

[arsen89]

Originally Posted by Itgb

Pads, ZCP rotors, sensors, and fluid is about $1k for parts, so how you paid $3k for labor is beyond me.

I have yet to drive an FR-S/BRZ, but my E46 M3 puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. The level of luxury and performance of the M3 cannot even compare to the FR-S/BRZ. If I were in your shoes(and you can financially plan for the higher maintenance costs), I would find a low miles M3 and enjoy.

Thanks for the input! And yeah that 4k brake job also puzzled me. I frequent m3forum and have not seen high numbers like that. Thats for giving me peace of mind again

[arsen89]

Originally Posted by Gaiakai

I was hoping for the exact same thing just a few months ago lol. Hopefully the E92's will go down to your budget when you're ready to buy, especially with the F80/F82 coming out pretty soon. Good luck!

I haven't given up yet, same thing with the 997.1. It'll probably be another year or two before I look for those though, for insurance purposes.

That is a good point. Pretty sure that we should be looking at plenty e92 in the lower price point pretty soon. But I really love the e46. I do believe both are great cars in their own right.

Dont even get me started on 997s. That is def not going to happen anytime in the near future haha. Truly my dream cars.

[arsen89]

Originally Posted by SunnyD

I've had an e36 m3, Z4M coupe and an e60 m5 and let me tell you there's something special about M cars that you have to own to appreciate.

Comparing the M coupe (or e46 m3) to the FR-S, there's definitely a power difference, but the power delivery is the same. If you've driven an e46 m3, you'll notice that there's really not a lot of power under 4k rpms. Same as the FR-S, you'll have to rev the m3 up to 8k rpms to really get it to pull. So if you're hesitant to wind the FR-S up to get it going, the m3 is the same way.

I've contemplated getting an e46 m3 too for the price of the FR-S, but there's something about owning a new car and having you be the only person to put miles on it that makes it worth it to me.

Wow you have had quite the stable. Yeah I have driven the M3 before and I have noticed that, I think the power is def more noticle when you overtake on the highway, at least in my experience.

And true the new car experience is great but I am always hesitant to took such a big hit on depreciation.

Agreed though, few things come close to M cars.

UGH I really want to test drive that FRS. Cant really do this without doing that first.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by arsen89

I have heard that VANOs can be a pain but I think that when you look at the big picture its a small price to pay for the engineering that went into these cars. I would think that if I do buy an e46 M3, I would probably keep it stock. I think the car is great as it is.

Yeah, the M3 is bad ass... while I like how the current M3 looks more like a supercar than the previous one, it's still a classy car. It's definitely well-engineered... when I worked at a dealership five or six years ago, we had an M3 that had been traded in, and I used to love just looking at the engine bay... gotta love those individual throttle bodies.

Originally Posted by arsen89

And true I need to test drive the FRS, but yeah who knows when that's going to happen

Someone posted in another thread that Tustin Toyota (maybe less than ten miles from me) is having some sort of event around the FR-S release, so HOPEFULLY they will offer a test drive... maybe if I get there early, plus I had a 7am meeting, so I'm dressed a little nicer, so maybe... it helps to be a little older than the more common FR-S fan.

[arsen89]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

I have had my 05 SMG coupe for 3 years now. Has 84k miles. I payed 26k for it from california, and had it shipped to the east coast, and over the last 3 years, have put $12,436.47. That includes suspensions mods, maintenance, off brand csl bumper, lights, tires, and an extra set of used wheels. When I first got it, I had it completely serviced just for good measures, which cost me 5-6k, which is half of the 12.5k I have spent. I typically try to find lightly used replacements which saves me a ton of money (tires, rotors, brake pads). I beat the crap out of my car, not going to lie... So I have gone through sets and sets and sets of used tires, which has added up, and a couple new tires. I do my own oil changes, and I do my own valve adjustments, which saves me a TON of money.

All in all, its hands down the best car I have ever owned. If you can do some things yourself, which isn't to hard because there are so many DIY online for them, as long as you have the tools, its not that bad of a money eater. Plus, engine wise, there isn't much you can do to increase performance without going FI, which is good and bad depending how you look at it. Headers is really all you need, exhausts don't really do anything for them.

Then you can buy a cable, and do the euro tune, or csl smg tune depending if you get the smg or not, and that is just the cost of the cable to plug in. Its actually my favorite part about the car... The ECU's on them are identical to the euro models, just different values entered in.

With the 1 cable, I have: euro blinkers, my windows can go up AND down with the key fob, my rear windows open and close with 1 touch, instead of having to hold the button, my running lights can be turned off and on with the key fob too.. Its pretty cool.

My youtube channel if you want to check out some of the reprogrammable features and an SMG launch: http://www.youtube.com/user/fstrnr1

I bet your car is great! Yeah if I had an M3 I def would put much money into tuning it. Headers and ECU upgrades would probably be most I would do. (Completely respect that guys that go the extra mile).

And yeah FI is something I reaaally would not do. I think the car is great as it is.

I'll make sure to check out your video when im not so at work

Originally Posted by Turbowned

arsen89, if you own the Prius outright and plan on keeping it for a daily driver, then the M3 could make sense. You could save it for weekends and nice days only, and not have to put tons of miles on it, which would spread out your service intervals and delay the time between replacing expensive fluids, brakes, tires, etc. You could also keep cruising around getting 46-48mpg (or whatever you get in the Prius) vs. 15-22 in the BMW ($1,250/yr for 15k miles of driving vs $3,600/yr).

The M3 is undoubtedly a much better car overall than the FR-S, but you gotta pay to play! A 10-yr-old German car is not a brilliant choice for a daily driver, especially if you don't have deep pockets. A weekend car that you don't have to depend on however, could be an excellent choice!

On the other hand, unless you have driven high-performance RWD cars before, an M3 may not be the best first car to jump into. A low-powered FR like the FR-S would be a much better car to learn performance driving in. I would say if you don't have experience yet, you'd be able to better hone your skills as a driver in the FR-S, and then you could jump up to an M car in the future. Something to consider!

I really do appreciate that you take time out of your day to give insightful advice, thanks man

Yeah you sure do get what Im talking about. The Prius would def not be my daily driver if I get and M3.

I agree with you on the fact that it would be my first powerful rear drive car. My main fear is that by the time I want to go ahead and get a nice e46 after owning the FRS I wount be able to find a good one...

Again thanks for the great advice!

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by arsen89

And true the new car experience is great but I am always hesitant to took such a big hit on depreciation.

This is always a valid point, but for millions of people each year, they are willing to pay for it. I am one of them, but of course the decision to go new vs. used is a case-by-case basis.

There's a lot of peace of mind when it comes to buying a new car. Outside of the obvious stuff (warranty, new car smell, etc.), you just really never know how the car was driven before or how well it was maintained. That is really the case for every used car, but it's more of a concern for performance-oriented cars, especially when available to a younger crowd, whereas your more "vanilla" cars like Corollas are solid to begin with and likely won't have been abused from behind the wheel. If you pick up a used FR-S/BRZ in a year or two, you'll have to wonder why someone got rid of it, plus you have no idea if it was driven by a teenage wannabe drifter who learned how to drive stick in it (meaning that its clutch life is questionable, among other things). And frankly, the Certified Pre-Owned status doesn't always mean much. Sure, you get a nicer powertrain warranty than what the new cars get, but A LOT of dealerships do not always do the inspections mentioned as part of the CPO certification. I would know, having worked in sales at a Toyota dealership before.

So just weigh your options... sure, you might save a couple thousand, but you'll lose some peace of mind while possibly even committing yourself to a potential headache, plus the bigger services will need to be done sooner than they would have been if you bought the car new. Additionally, most cars traded in first likely have a lot of miles racked up for whatever reason.

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

I have to disagree with this statement. BMWs in general, especially the M models from the e46 and up, have incredible driving safety features. I could give my e46 to my grandmother, and she could drive it as hard as she wants and not bring the rear end out. Settings wise, you can go from never losing the rear, to just slightly losing it and letting it catch its self, to getting completely sideways until the computer catches you, or you can turn it off completely.

Undoubtedly, but that still doesn't make it a good first performance car to hone your skills with. The driving safety features, coupled with wide tires and lots of horsepower are great for masking lack of skill. When you learn to drive in an underpowered sports car first, you learn how to make the most of the car through your technique; learning to drive a slow car fast.

Mistakes cost you more time in a slower car (unless you turn the T/C off in a high-hp car, where mistakes can cost you your car!), thus you learn not to be sloppy, whereas in a faster car you can typically just mash the gas, point and shoot. Who cares if you hit the apex perfectly? This is why I'm not a big fan of people going out and buying GT-R's, Evos, STi's etc. not having any background in performance driving, and thinking they're hot shit when in reality they're mediocre and the car is showing all the talent.

Now if you don't care about becoming a skillful driver and just want to have fun, then that's another story! Buy whatever you want. I just happen to care, personally. Like many of my friends, I started out in a sub-200hp RWD car, and worked my way up. Miatas, MR2's, and 240SX's were the tools we learned with.

[86'd]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

This is always a valid point, but for millions of people each year, they are willing to pay for it. I am one of them, but of course the decision to go new vs. used is a case-by-case basis.

There's a lot of peace of mind when it comes to buying a new car. Outside of the obvious stuff (warranty, new car smell, etc.), you just really never know how the car was driven before or how well it was maintained. That is really the case for every used car, but it's more of a concern for performance-oriented cars, especially when available to a younger crowd, whereas your more "vanilla" cars like Corollas are solid to begin with and likely won't have been abused from behind the wheel. If you pick up a used FR-S/BRZ in a year or two, you'll have to wonder why someone got rid of it, plus you have no idea if it was driven by a teenage wannabe drifter who learned how to drive stick in it (meaning that its clutch life is questionable, among other things). And frankly, the Certified Pre-Owned status doesn't always mean much. Sure, you get a nicer powertrain warranty than what the new cars get, but A LOT of dealerships do not always do the inspections mentioned as part of the CPO certification. I would know, having worked in sales at a Toyota dealership before.

So just weigh your options... sure, you might save a couple thousand, but you'll lose some peace of mind while possibly even committing yourself to a potential headache, plus the bigger services will need to be done sooner than they would have been if you bought the car new. Additionally, most cars traded in first likely have a lot of miles racked up for whatever reason.

That's why I bought new with my last car, and will (most likely) buy a new FRS/BRZ.

I just want cars under warranty. I know I'll take care of it well, and hope to keep them running and around for 10+ years.

I was putting $1000+ a year on my used Mini in repairs. We were financing anyway, so that $85 a month could have gone to a NEW car, and so we bought a new car.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by 86'd

I just want cars under warranty. I know I'll take care of it well, and hope to keep them running and around for 10+ years.

Exactly. Not all used cars are bad, as whoever bought my previous Evo was lucky, since used ones that were still 100% bone stock weren't common then and far less common now.

Originally Posted by 86'd

I was putting $1000+ a year on my used Mini in repairs. We were financing anyway, so that $85 a month could have gone to a NEW car, and so we bought a new car.

That's crazy... but also a perfect example of when buying used can be more of a curse. And seeing how you seem to be a pretty smart guy, I'm sure that you didn't find any indications upon vehicle purchase that the car was going to be problematic.

[86fanatic]

Not to be the negative voice of reason in this thread, but it seems incredibly silly to me how many new graduates get a somewhat decent first job and jump immediately into a 50k+ car purchase. Buying an expensive car isn't "living life", it's more "flaunting wealth" then anything, especially if you don't use it for it's intended purpose.

I owned a Cayman S for a few years, and it was more power then I needed, and the maintenance costs really make you question the decision to tie up so much money into a material object. I imagine an M3 would be similar.

With the 30k you are about to blow on a car, you could travel the world, you can take several high performance driving class lessons, you can have you choice of live experiences.

As a new graduate getting a start in the world, I'd recommend experiencing things first while you're young, because you can buy expensive things at any age. Missing out on 30k worth of life experience can impact the rest of your life, and I don't consider driving around in a 50k car life experience.

Just my two cents, I won't say anything more, but just something to think about.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by arsen89

Thats Right



I do apologize for being somewhat off topic. But one of the cars is the FRS so I figured it would be a proper place to post this. Thanks for the advise.



They probably will, I do check that myself every now and again haha.

Oh No an aggie! haha kidding man. That is awesome Congrats! You must be super excited, party it up :happy0180:

haha, youre not off topic. its just the nature of the forum. they talk aobut the mustang in a genesis thread or auto x in a drag racing thread.

im only saying what i said because i was/am in a similar situation where i likely had more money saved, a better job and spend 2/3 the price for a car and really kind of regret it.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

In the USA, for your average person, driving a car is a part of everyday life. I understand what your saying, but I think it just comes down to preference. I myself, don't see anything wrong with buying a car you want, when you have to drive it every single day. Just like when I buy toothpaste, I spend the extra money on the one that tastes best, because I use it everyday.

Some peoples passion for cars, is just a great as other peoples passion for traveling.

Not to mention, with any decent job, you are only granted xx days a year for vacation. Last year I went to Czech, and then Ukraine on vacation (wife is from Ukraine) for 20 days, and it didn't even cost us 6k. Not even close, and we were eating out A LOT.

how often do you buy toothpaste and then halfway through the tube, decide to sell it and buy another tube of toothpaste?