Brake pad recommendation

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

Intresting I have never felt this with my current set of XP10's but I am on a Wilwood caliper BBK

It is something that becomes more evident when you try a stouter pad like the CSG's. I didn't know what it was when I had the XP10's, but when I went C1's it became evident what was going on.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

I have a the RR Racing BBK with Wilwoods so I don't experience anything bad now.

That's the real key though. Not only is the rotor now bigger, the caliper went from a two piston to a six piston and a sliding caliper to a fixed piston with even pressure. We don't see these kinds of issues because we have greater surface area to dissipate the heat, more even/greater pad pressure with the six piston setup and the dynamics of how the pad is "squeezed" are completely different because of the six piston nature.

I only state that because while this is an interesting thread to read, it doesn't mean much to those of us that have BBKs.

More area =/= more pressure. The amount of mechanical hydraulic force remains unchanged.

The increased bite is from having more mechanical torque from the increased radius of the force applied.

a 2 piston floating and 4 piston opposed caliper apply identical force, assuming the pistons are sized identically. Each force has an equal and opposite (normal) force. On the 2 piston oem caliper, this opposing force is applied by the other side of the caliper without pistons.

[RT-BRZ]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

More area =/= more pressure. The amount of mechanical hydraulic force remains unchanged.

The increased bite is from having more mechanical torque from the increased radius of the force applied.

a 2 piston floating and 4 piston opposed caliper apply identical force, assuming the pistons are sized identically. Each force has an equal and opposite (normal) force. On the 2 piston oem caliper, this opposing force is applied by the other side of the caliper without pistons.

I generally agree with what you're saying. The only point I was making was around "feel" and there are other variables that come into play for that kind of thing when the setups have different variables. I'm just using basic logic on that point.

As for my example, I'm running 6 piston BBK and the layout and size is definitely different than the stock 2 piston. Also, the greater dissipation of heat due to the larger friction surface of the rotor is a key difference in "feel" as well. It may react the same at the limits of each respectively it's just that you won't reach those limits at the same time.

I know I'm preaching to the choir though.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

I generally agree with what you're saying. The only point I was making was around "feel" and there are other variables that come into play for that kind of thing when the setups have different variables. I'm just using basic logic on that point.



As for my example, I'm running 6 piston BBK and the layout and size is definitely different than the stock 2 piston. Also, the greater dissipation of heat due to the larger friction surface of the rotor is a key difference in "feel" as well. It may react the same at the limits of each respectively it's just that you won't reach those limits at the same time.



I know I'm preaching to the choir though.

My comment on the feel of the C1's vs XP10's was on BBK.

XP10’s after about 6 days. Maybe as many as 8, I don’t recall.

C1’s did over 12 track days and still have the original paint on the backing plates. Front C1’s still had just under 1/4 inch left.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

I generally agree with what you're saying. The only point I was making was around "feel" and there are other variables that come into play for that kind of thing when the setups have different variables. I'm just using basic logic on that point.

As for my example, I'm running 6 piston BBK and the layout and size is definitely different than the stock 2 piston. Also, the greater dissipation of heat due to the larger friction surface of the rotor is a key difference in "feel" as well. It may react the same at the limits of each respectively it's just that you won't reach those limits at the same time.

I know I'm preaching to the choir though.

A lot of the feel comes from the increased rigidity of the caliper vs the oem. However, try this experiment:

- Use a hand caliper spreader tool that's normally used to retract pistons. Spread the OEM calipers by hand.
- Note the amount the caliper flexes (tacos).
- Repeat with the Wilwood. Note the diminished flex.

- the average adult male has about 72lbs of force in their squeeze grip. Brake systems will be anywhere from 600-2000psi.
- Imagine the additional flex with even a 10x increase in force.

- Now, imagine how much less flex there would be in a stiffer caliper. Wilwood is among the softest aftermarket calipers, and still exhibits a significant increase in pedal firmness.


The heat dissipation is only an issue if you're overheating your pads to begin with. Ideally you want the bare minimum dissipation without overheating for maximum thermal stability, which reduces crazing/cracking.

Example of crazing on my brz when I used stock brake calipers. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bki4Vc_Ay5Q/

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

- Use a hand caliper spreader tool that's normally used to retract pistons. Spread the OEM calipers by hand.
[...]

- the average adult male has about 72lbs of force in their squeeze grip. Brake systems will be anywhere from 600-2000psi.

A couple of clarifications:
1) At least some (all?) caliper spreader tools use leverage to multiply the force applied to the grip.
Looking at my caliper piston spreader tool, I think it generates at least 5x force multiplications.

2) To futher make this more of an apples to apples comparison, a 40 mm piston is ~0.787 inches in radius, which makes it ~1.948 square inches of surface the brake fluid is applied to.
600-2000psi of pressure times 1.948 square inches times two pistons per side is ~2300...7800 lbs of force.

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

I have a the RR Racing BBK with Wilwoods so I don't experience anything bad now.

That's the real key though. Not only is the rotor now bigger, the caliper went from a two piston to a six piston and a sliding caliper to a fixed piston with even pressure. We don't see these kinds of issues because we have greater surface area to dissipate the heat, more even/greater pad pressure with the six piston setup and the dynamics of how the pad is "squeezed" are completely different because of the six piston nature.

I only state that because while this is an interesting thread to read, it doesn't mean much to those of us that have BBKs.

Did you go for a BBK on both axles or just the front?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

A couple of clarifications:
1) At least some (all?) caliper spreader tools use leverage to multiply the force applied to the grip.
Looking at my caliper piston spreader tool, I think it generates at least 5x force multiplications.

2) To futher make this more of an apples to apples comparison, a 40 mm piston is ~0.787 inches in radius, which makes it ~1.948 square inches of surface the brake fluid is applied to.
600-2000psi of pressure times 1.948 square inches times two pistons per side is ~2300...7800 lbs of force.

Ultimately, the fine detail math really doesn't matter. It's purely to illustrate what happens visually, in a manner that is easy to do for the average hobbyist.

[RT-BRZ]

Originally Posted by Fletch

Did you go for a BBK on both axles or just the front?

I did both axles. I did the RR Racing Stage II on the front and the Sport on the rear after some discussion about not messing up brake bias.

[Angrypuppy]

Quick update. Two track days last weekend on stock pads and fluid. Yesterday finished another track day. Six 20 minute sessions at The Ridge. This time had CSG C1 pads on the front and C11 on the rear with Motul 660.

No fading, great smooth predictable bite and release, and consistent all day. Would get into ABS easier but was easy to adapt to.

Would buy again.

[diga]

Originally Posted by TommyW

I use Powerstop Trackday pads. They are really good. First set got 3 autocross and 4 track days. Current set is 8 track days and probably 3 more to go. I’ve heard lots of good things about the CSG pads and may give them a shot.

I consistently read positive reviews for track use on these pads but wondering if they'd be ok as street pads as well, wondering how they perform when cold. In the description on their website it seems to say they work from street to track, just wondering if you've tried these as street pads?

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by diga

I consistently read positive reviews for track use on these pads but wondering if they'd be ok as street pads as well, wondering how they perform when cold. In the description on their website it seems to say they work from street to track, just wondering if you've tried these as street pads?

i don’t drive on the street much but they work fine. You need to bed them properly though.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by TommyW

I use Powerstop Trackday pads. They are really good. First set got 3 autocross and 4 track days. Current set is 8 track days and probably 3 more to go. I’ve heard lots of good things about the CSG pads and may give them a shot.

i used powerstop track day on my Camaro SS1LEs... didn't have brake fade at all using the stock SC3 tires. i drove them everywhere from Thunderhill to COTA to Watkins glen and they held up great but only for about 4 days in the front, maybe 5-6 in the rear.

i looked for track day pads and couldn't find them, what model numbers are you using? thanks!


back on topic:
I talked to mike at counterspace garage and i'm going to try some GLOC R12s front & rear for my maiden track adventures. gotta pick some tires now, debating pilot sport cup2, NT01, proxes R888R, azenis RT600?

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

i used powerstop track day on my Camaro SS1LEs... didn't have brake fade at all using the stock SC3 tires. i drove them everywhere from Thunderhill to COTA to Watkins glen and they held up great but only for about 4 days in the front, maybe 5-6 in the rear.

i looked for track day pads and couldn't find them, what model numbers are you using? thanks!


back on topic:
I talked to mike at counterspace garage and i'm going to try some GLOC R12s front & rear for my maiden track adventures. gotta pick some tires now, debating pilot sport cup2, NT01, proxes R888R, azenis RT600?

PSA 1539 Fronts
PST1124 Rears

Amazon
Carid
Summit Racing

The CSG pads I hear are better however I’ve been happy with these for now.