follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting

Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-16-2021, 04:56 PM   #15
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '17 BRZ PP
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 3,999
Thanks: 971
Thanked 3,165 Times in 1,691 Posts
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I'm a big fan of CSG Spec C2 for track use. Great bite and modulation, and work over a very wide temperature range, OK on the street, and mine lasted ~9 events/18 track days! With PP/Brembos...
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Angrypuppy (12-16-2021), TommyW (12-16-2021)
Old 01-02-2022, 06:47 PM   #16
TommyW
Senior Member
 
TommyW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Drives: '13 Whiteout
Location: San Clemente
Posts: 1,363
Thanks: 454
Thanked 1,094 Times in 604 Posts
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
What is the thickness of our pads? I'm assuming they are all the same?
TommyW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2022, 09:19 PM   #17
jflogerzi
Senior Member
 
jflogerzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 2013 Series 10 6MT FR-S
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 5,188
Thanks: 1,849
Thanked 1,824 Times in 1,336 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
How much street driving and how much noise can you deal with? Do not run Carbotech XP pads on the street.
__________________
2013 Series 10 FRS #553
RCE SS-1s, SPC LCAs -3/2.3 camber
JDL 4-2-1 EL, FP and OP, Tuned by Zach@CSG on e85
RR Wilwood Front/Rear Sport BBK, Motul 600 Fluid
ARC-8 17x9 SX2 GTs 245s/Koing 17x8 RE71rs 235s
jflogerzi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 05:55 PM   #18
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,081
Thanks: 8,742
Thanked 13,723 Times in 6,594 Posts
Mentioned: 946 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyW View Post
What is the thickness of our pads? I'm assuming they are all the same?
depends a bit on make and model.

CSG pads are 18mm (thicker than OEM because they're designed to be run WITHOUT shims, so you get some extra pad material that eats up the shim's total thickness + grease) for base calipers

PP caliper pads are 15mm.

Other aftermarket calipers available for the 86 platform can be up to 25mm.


Remember that thickness alone doesn't determine pad "life", but total pad mass.

For example, the pad mass of a AP Sprint or Stoptech C43 kit is actually identical to a stock pad, even though the AP/ST pad is 20mm vs stock 18mm, because the stock shape pad is taller.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
downshiftxlr8 (01-06-2022), jflogerzi (01-06-2022), timurrrr (01-05-2022), TommyW (01-05-2022)
Old 01-17-2022, 06:56 PM   #19
Angrypuppy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Drives: 2022 BRZ Limited on order
Location: Western, WA
Posts: 21
Thanks: 14
Thanked 16 Times in 7 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
After two track days this weekend it was clear brakes were priority one. While I knew they wouldn’t be great I didn’t think stock pads and fluid would be as bad as they were.

Communicated with counterspace garage, maybe Mike, a few times today. They were great to deal with and I settled on the C1 pad for the front and C11 for the rear. Paid to have them overnighted so I can get them on the car by Saturday for another day at the track.

I had narrowed it down to the C1 or PFC 08 endurance.
Angrypuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2022, 07:43 PM   #20
Fletch
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Drives: 2022 BRZ Limited
Location: California
Posts: 37
Thanks: 24
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I just tracked my '22 BRZ for the first time yesterday at Willow Springs (which is light on braking). I had already upgraded to Hawk DTC-60s with SS lines and Motul 660 last week. Stock calipers and rotors.

After the first session the pedal was already softer and longer and in further sessions got worse and inconsistent to the point I was a little worried they might fail. They did manage to stand up for 4 sessions however.

The car wreaked of pad burn and looking at the fronts they had visible paint bubbling on the rear of the pads. When i can work out how to upload photos ill post a pic.
Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2022, 07:48 PM   #21
villainous_frx
Off to the track!
 
villainous_frx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Drives: '14 Lava
Location: London Ontario
Posts: 248
Thanks: 352
Thanked 311 Times in 143 Posts
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I just tracked my '22 BRZ for the first time yesterday at Willow Springs (which is light on braking). I had already upgraded to Hawk DTC-60s with SS lines and Motul 660 last week. Stock calipers and rotors.

After the first session the pedal was already softer and longer and in further sessions got worse and inconsistent to the point I was a little worried they might fail. They did manage to stand up for 4 sessions.

The car wreaked of pad burn and looking at the fronts they had visible paint bubbling on the rear of the pads. When i can work out how to upload photos ill post a pic.
Did you have TCS and other stability controls active? If so, those put a lot of heat into the braking system and will have contributed to the pedal feel becoming squishy.
__________________
villainous_frx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to villainous_frx For This Useful Post:
NoHaveMSG (01-17-2022), soundman98 (01-18-2022), timurrrr (01-19-2022)
Old 01-17-2022, 08:07 PM   #22
Fletch
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Drives: 2022 BRZ Limited
Location: California
Posts: 37
Thanks: 24
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by villainous_frx View Post
Did you have TCS and other stability controls active? If so, those put a lot of heat into the braking system and will have contributed to the pedal feel becoming squishy.
No everything was off (using long press on the left hand traction button).
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Fletch; 01-17-2022 at 08:33 PM.
Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Fletch For This Useful Post:
timurrrr (01-20-2022)
Old 01-17-2022, 09:26 PM   #23
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,081
Thanks: 8,742
Thanked 13,723 Times in 6,594 Posts
Mentioned: 946 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I just tracked my '22 BRZ for the first time yesterday at Willow Springs (which is light on braking). I had already upgraded to Hawk DTC-60s with SS lines and Motul 660 last week. Stock calipers and rotors.

After the first session the pedal was already softer and longer and in further sessions got worse and inconsistent to the point I was a little worried they might fail. They did manage to stand up for 4 sessions however.

The car wreaked of pad burn and looking at the fronts they had visible paint bubbling on the rear of the pads. When i can work out how to upload photos ill post a pic.
That's pretty typical of Hawk pads.

Give the CSG pads a try. They fundamentally run cooler, and you'll visibly see it in the silver not bubbling.

The soft pedal could be the pads getting really hot and transmissing heat to the caliper, or possibly an incomplete flush. A lot of folks try to skimp on the initial flush (I'm guility of it too), and end up with a soft pedal. Keep bleeding, and this should improve. If it doesn't, then your brake are just running way too hot, whether it's a characteristic of the pad, too much ABS use, or the particular track being hard on brakes.

At this time, I recommend 2L for the initial flush, and then 0.5-1.0L for bleeds.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
evanescent03 (04-20-2022), soundman98 (01-18-2022)
Old 01-18-2022, 01:33 PM   #24
Fletch
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Drives: 2022 BRZ Limited
Location: California
Posts: 37
Thanks: 24
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
That's pretty typical of Hawk pads.

Give the CSG pads a try. They fundamentally run cooler, and you'll visibly see it in the silver not bubbling.

The soft pedal could be the pads getting really hot and transmissing heat to the caliper, or possibly an incomplete flush. A lot of folks try to skimp on the initial flush (I'm guility of it too), and end up with a soft pedal. Keep bleeding, and this should improve. If it doesn't, then your brake are just running way too hot, whether it's a characteristic of the pad, too much ABS use, or the particular track being hard on brakes.

At this time, I recommend 2L for the initial flush, and then 0.5-1.0L for bleeds.
Thanks for the info. To be honest im new to BRZ's so I hadn't heard of your pads before. I've generally run Hawks on my other street and race cars - not least because of contingency credits :P

Im curious how your pads manage to dissipate the heat better than the big brands?
Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2022, 01:38 PM   #25
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,081
Thanks: 8,742
Thanked 13,723 Times in 6,594 Posts
Mentioned: 946 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Thanks for the info. To be honest im new to BRZ's so I hadn't heard of your pads before. I've generally run Hawks on my other street and race cars - not least because of contingency credits :P

Im curious how your pads manage to dissipate the heat better than the big brands?
The function of brakes is to turn kinetic energy into anything but kinetic energy. That conversion results in different ratios of heat, vibration (sound, both audible and inaudible), and in the case of CSG pads and other high end pads, endothermic ablation.

Additionally, CSG pads are pressed at a higher tonnage, which results in better response and less pad squish (yes, pads squish!), which means less system pressure is needed, also resulting in less waste heat.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
NoHaveMSG (01-18-2022), soundman98 (01-18-2022), timurrrr (01-20-2022), villainous_frx (01-18-2022)
Old 01-18-2022, 01:47 PM   #26
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 7,685
Thanks: 11,919
Thanked 10,852 Times in 4,910 Posts
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post

Additionally, CSG pads are pressed at a higher tonnage, which results in better response and less pad squish (yes, pads squish!), which means less system pressure is needed, also resulting in less waste heat.
Honestly this is my favorite feature of the pad. It has really consistent feel at the limit even when hot. XP10's felt squishy to me and it made it tough to threshold brake as they didn't behave consistently and felt, as you said, squishy.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2022, 11:16 PM   #27
jflogerzi
Senior Member
 
jflogerzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 2013 Series 10 6MT FR-S
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 5,188
Thanks: 1,849
Thanked 1,824 Times in 1,336 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
Honestly this is my favorite feature of the pad. It has really consistent feel at the limit even when hot. XP10's felt squishy to me and it made it tough to threshold brake as they didn't behave consistently and felt, as you said, squishy.
Intresting I have never felt this with my current set of XP10's but I am on a Wilwood caliper BBK
__________________
2013 Series 10 FRS #553
RCE SS-1s, SPC LCAs -3/2.3 camber
JDL 4-2-1 EL, FP and OP, Tuned by Zach@CSG on e85
RR Wilwood Front/Rear Sport BBK, Motul 600 Fluid
ARC-8 17x9 SX2 GTs 245s/Koing 17x8 RE71rs 235s
jflogerzi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2022, 07:05 AM   #28
RT-BRZ
FNG
 
RT-BRZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 89
Thanks: 113
Thanked 41 Times in 28 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jflogerzi View Post
Intresting I have never felt this with my current set of XP10's but I am on a Wilwood caliper BBK
I have a the RR Racing BBK with Wilwoods so I don't experience anything bad now.

That's the real key though. Not only is the rotor now bigger, the caliper went from a two piston to a six piston and a sliding caliper to a fixed piston with even pressure. We don't see these kinds of issues because we have greater surface area to dissipate the heat, more even/greater pad pressure with the six piston setup and the dynamics of how the pad is "squeezed" are completely different because of the six piston nature.

I only state that because while this is an interesting thread to read, it doesn't mean much to those of us that have BBKs.
RT-BRZ is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to RT-BRZ For This Useful Post:
jflogerzi (01-20-2022)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Recommendation for GTA PDR? 1Cor10:23 CANADA 12 11-08-2014 09:08 PM
Brake pad and fluid install shop recommendation(south florida)? becauseracecar1 Southeast 3 04-21-2014 10:32 AM
FS: FRS OEM E-Brake (Emergency Brake) Hand Brake Boot CamryDS Interior Parts (Incl. Lighting) 0 06-24-2013 11:26 PM
Non LED recommendation for DRL boredom.is.me Cosmetic Modification (Interior/Exterior/Lighting) 13 05-11-2013 05:34 PM
Redline360: Brake Lines, Brake Rotors, Brake Pads for BRZ/FRS Redline360 Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 12 01-05-2013 10:20 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.