CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by ForeverCar

I agree with @grumpysnapper and @Ohio Enthusiast points. If one is after lap times, driving is one of the biggest components. Great drivers are not necessarily great coaches. Sim is also a good tool to improve driving as well.

At the end of it, it comes down to what one is after.

For me, the driver/driving is always the biggest component, lap times or not. Track or road. Going to the shops or on the perfect mountain run.

A driver can make a great car seem mediocre, or a mediocre car something special.
A driver can make the exact same car appear to be an understeering pig, or a nimble nicely balanced joy.
The driver can make a a car a dangerous weapon or a safe and quick mechanical tool.

Sims are ok for learning tracks etc...but I feel they have a very very limited use for developing the sense of feel that we need in the real world.
They also fundamentally change your driving psychology when you are using them... you tend to drive "harder" as there are no consequences , so less fear and more risks. None of these are a good thing outside of a sim. My other concern is how on earth a sims algorithms and hardware can actually accurately mimic a 2005 Miata on 3 old tyres and a leaking left rear shock?

Data and feel can be two very different things.

A great coach will help in every single driving situation, with every single car, with every single technical development interpretation (so that other experts are then better able to help you).

The chef analogy is a good one. I'm a photographer and I love good gear but the amount of times I've put my blood sweat and tears into a photograph , which then I show the subject/journo/client on the screen on the back of the camera...and they go "wow, amazing, love it... what an awesome camera!".
Yep and Da Vinci had amazing brushes, Michael Angelo used a terrific hammer, Gordon Ramsey's oven is spectacular and the air in Fangio's tyres was always the purest they could buy... (I'm not in the same orbit as those guys, but the hardware is the lesser part of the equation in all but the most extreme situations).

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by ForeverCar

Do share more on spherical bearings when you get a chance!

So there's the basic stuff...no deflection means faster response and no dynamic alignment changes due to bushing deflection. That can be good, also has a minor change in a few aspects of how the car behaves because the factory bushings are designed to deflect in specific ways.

They will generally ride a little more harshly depending on which bushing we're talking about. And if exposed to the elements can require more frequent inspection/replacement, especially with lower quality bearings. But for example, there's essentially 0 change to N,V, or H with spherical bearings in the rear toe arm or rear lower control arm for my car.

IMO...spherical bearings highlight the rest of the car's suspension proficiencies and deficiencies. Crappy dampers with not enough travel? You're gonna notice how crappy they are on bumps! Really awesome dampers nicely matched to your springs and dialed in? They're gonna feel extra good, on road and track! Really unbalanced spring rates? It's going to feel even more unbalanced.

And when it's all set up right, it is pretty awesome. Connected, respsonsive, consistent. Yes more vibration, sometimes noise depending on the location (but they shouldn't clunk), and sometimes more harshness (though again, not much change if the rest of your suspension is good).

As for poly, I don't use them for bushings that move/rotate.

Hope that helps.

- Andrew

[ForeverCar]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

So there's the basic stuff...no deflection means faster response and no dynamic alignment changes due to bushing deflection. That can be good, also has a minor change in a few aspects of how the car behaves because the factory bushings are designed to deflect in specific ways.

They will generally ride a little more harshly depending on which bushing we're talking about. And if exposed to the elements can require more frequent inspection/replacement, especially with lower quality bearings. But for example, there's essentially 0 change to N,V, or H with spherical bearings in the rear toe arm or rear lower control arm for my car.

IMO...spherical bearings highlight the rest of the car's suspension proficiencies and deficiencies. Crappy dampers with not enough travel? You're gonna notice how crappy they are on bumps! Really awesome dampers nicely matched to your springs and dialed in? They're gonna feel extra good, on road and track! Really unbalanced spring rates? It's going to feel even more unbalanced.

And when it's all set up right, it is pretty awesome. Connected, respsonsive, consistent. Yes more vibration, sometimes noise depending on the location (but they shouldn't clunk), and sometimes more harshness (though again, not much change if the rest of your suspension is good).

As for poly, I don't use them for bushings that move/rotate.

Hope that helps.

- Andrew

Thank you Andrew @Racecomp Engineering !

Since it might be quite involved, I’m happy to discuss over email or phone as well.

What would be a good comprehensive upgrade plan with say the following parameters,
1. No drastic modifications to the frame/subframes. Subframe replacement, if available, is okay.
2. Not a daily driver but not a dedicated race car. Think of it as a specialized car for the most connected feel on backroads and road courses.
3. Ultimate performance is not the goal. Precision, feel, consistency, balanced, progressiveness, and response are much more important.
4. 95% of the time, tires will likely be 245/40/18 Michelin PS4S (or similar tires from your recommendation). Would want the flexibility to go all the way to Cup 2 track tires or Hoosiers (but not racing slicks) without needing lots of new parts.
5. Okay with diminishing return in terms of cost for the most part. Using dampers as an example, I’d rather get that extra 10% precision (for example) even if it means 100% extra cost. Same with cost effectiveness in terms of install labor.

[Jdmjunkie]

Originally Posted by ForeverCar

Thank you Andrew @Racecomp Engineering !

Since it might be quite involved, I’m happy to discuss over email or phone as well.

What would be a good comprehensive upgrade plan with say the following parameters,
1. No drastic modifications to the frame/subframes. Subframe replacement, if available, is okay.
2. Not a daily driver but not a dedicated race car. Think of it as a specialized car for the most connected feel on backroads and road courses.
3. Ultimate performance is not the goal. Precision, feel, consistency, balanced, progressiveness, and response are much more important.
4. 95% of the time, tires will likely be 245/40/18 Michelin PS4S (or similar tires from your recommendation). Would want the flexibility to go all the way to Cup 2 track tires or Hoosiers (but not racing slicks) without needing lots of new parts.
5. Okay with diminishing return in terms of cost for the most part. Using dampers as an example, I’d rather get that extra 10% precision (for example) even if it means 100% extra cost. Same with cost effectiveness in terms of install labor.

This is something I am interested in as well. Could you make a separate thread discussing "feel" mods?

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

So there's the basic stuff...no deflection means faster response and no dynamic alignment changes due to bushing deflection. That can be good, also has a minor change in a few aspects of how the car behaves because the factory bushings are designed to deflect in specific ways.

They will generally ride a little more harshly depending on which bushing we're talking about. And if exposed to the elements can require more frequent inspection/replacement, especially with lower quality bearings. But for example, there's essentially 0 change to N,V, or H with spherical bearings in the rear toe arm or rear lower control arm for my car.

IMO...spherical bearings highlight the rest of the car's suspension proficiencies and deficiencies. Crappy dampers with not enough travel? You're gonna notice how crappy they are on bumps! Really awesome dampers nicely matched to your springs and dialed in? They're gonna feel extra good, on road and track! Really unbalanced spring rates? It's going to feel even more unbalanced.

And when it's all set up right, it is pretty awesome. Connected, respsonsive, consistent. Yes more vibration, sometimes noise depending on the location (but they shouldn't clunk), and sometimes more harshness (though again, not much change if the rest of your suspension is good).

As for poly, I don't use them for bushings that move/rotate.

Hope that helps.

- Andrew

Although I'd be a little bit (very) hesitant to start any suspension modification journey with a change to sphericals before coming to terms with other more (perhaps) influential considerations/descions over a period of time?

[Calum]

Just out of curiosity, are there any rear calipers that fit an FRS, that have integrated parking brake so we can get ride of the drum hardware?

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Calum

Just out of curiosity, are there any rear calipers that fit an FRS, that have integrated parking brake so we can get ride of the drum hardware?

I'm not aware of any.

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by grumpysnapper

Although I'd be a little bit (very) hesitant to start any suspension modification journey with a change to sphericals before coming to terms with other more (perhaps) influential considerations/descions over a period of time?

I agree with this. It's usually not the first step.

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by ForeverCar

Thank you Andrew @Racecomp Engineering !

Since it might be quite involved, I’m happy to discuss over email or phone as well.

What would be a good comprehensive upgrade plan with say the following parameters,
1. No drastic modifications to the frame/subframes. Subframe replacement, if available, is okay.
2. Not a daily driver but not a dedicated race car. Think of it as a specialized car for the most connected feel on backroads and road courses.
3. Ultimate performance is not the goal. Precision, feel, consistency, balanced, progressiveness, and response are much more important.
4. 95% of the time, tires will likely be 245/40/18 Michelin PS4S (or similar tires from your recommendation). Would want the flexibility to go all the way to Cup 2 track tires or Hoosiers (but not racing slicks) without needing lots of new parts.
5. Okay with diminishing return in terms of cost for the most part. Using dampers as an example, I’d rather get that extra 10% precision (for example) even if it means 100% extra cost. Same with cost effectiveness in terms of install labor.

Sorry, busy days over here! December and January are usually quiet and they are very much not that this year thanks to the new car and some parts work. You can email me at andrew@racecompengineering.com if you like and I don't miss emails.

1. Not really needed for most cars.
2. Only thing I'm thinking about here is driver safety. Planning on a fixed back seat and rollbar?
3.
4. We can work with that for sure.
5. Dampers will likely be the most expensive thing. Should be worth noting that more expensive dampers (designed for motorsport primarily) sometimes require more frequent maintence/rebuilds. Also what I was getting at in my previous post was that if it's 10% more precision, but 15% more complexity, that may work for you but not everyone reading this.

So it sounds like you've got your wheels and tires sorted.

Brakes...unfortunately we're all still figuring out what kits fit the 2nd gen and waiting for some new parts. We've enjoyed the AP racing kits from Essex in the past, but you could easily get by for now with a good set of pads on the stock calipers.

Safety is the next question. A racing seat, harness, and roll bar aren't required by any means for a fun weekend track car, but if you find yourself flirting with ten tenths every other weekend and really pushing yourself and the car...it is something to consider.

After that...some prefer a "one piece at a time" approach, and for others it's a "do it all at once" thing. Advantages and disadvantages to each. But with the new platform, a little bit of patience might go a long way as new parts get released and a little more research gets done.

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Jdmjunkie

This is something I am interested in as well. Could you make a separate thread discussing "feel" mods?

Feel can be so subjective but it's also a pretty interesting topic. I might do that soon.

- Andrew

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ForeverCar

I agree with @grumpysnapper and @Ohio Enthusiast points. If one is after lap times, driving is one of the biggest components. Great drivers are not necessarily great coaches. Sim is also a good tool to improve driving as well.

At the end of it, it comes down to what one is after.

This can be a very dangerous double edged sword!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ForeverCar

Do share more on spherical bearings when you get a chance!

Sphericals allow for clean articulation without deflection or storage of energy.

This means that ALL the work is done by the coilover as intended, rather than bushings being a part of the equation when it comes to absorbing and releasing energy.

Great dampers will be further highlighted by the use of sphericals.

[*Axel]

Hi, I am proud owner of a 2022 BRZ Premium. It's a hobby toy for recreational driving on streets and road trips, as well as playing around swapping various spring rates and stacked/dual spring setups. I have a set of Swift Spec-R springs on the way.

1. What are your thoughts on Tein EnduraPro and EnduraPro PLUS, marketed as "high-performance OE-shape" shocks, compared to Bilstein B6s?

2. Paired with springs up to 300-lbs/in, in terms of real world driving feel, driving mostly 5-6/10ths, within legal speeds, would I even be able to tell the difference between the Teins and Bilsteins? If so, how?

There is a significant price difference. I see you both saying how important great dampers are, Racecomp Engineering & CSG Mike. It seems the Teins are a viable choice. Are Bilsteins and Konis that much better?

What I intend to do is swap occasionally between 2 sets of dampers with various spring setups; I will be using the stock set too as I think they are certainly worth enough to not let them go to waste.

This is an awesome thread! Been reading and learning, lots.

more questions to follow - Thanks

[bhmax]

Originally Posted by *Axel

Hi, I am proud owner of a 2022 BRZ Premium. It's a hobby toy for recreational driving on streets and road trips, as well as playing around swapping various spring rates and stacked/dual spring setups. I have a set of Swift Spec-R springs on the way.

1. What are your thoughts on Tein EnduraPro and EnduraPro PLUS, marketed as "high-performance OE-shape" shocks, compared to Bilstein B6s?

I’ve had B6/SpecR on 3 different cars now and have been very happy with the setup in terms of a feeling of stable control of motions and ability to give a decent ride over bumpy roads. Only recently switched to RCE SS1 on the BRZ for ability to fit wider wheels, have stiffer springs, and learn how adjusting damping affects things.

I’m currently installing a set of Tein Endurapro Plus dampers on an ‘05 WRX that will see daily use and RX. I couldn’t find a lot of feedback on them. Hoping for good things, they can’t be any worse than the wobbly dampers I pulled off.