Car & Driver Comparison Test Review: Veloster N vs. GTI vs. BRZ vs. GR86

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by ZDan

+6mph faster and 1.0 sec quicker in the 1/4-mile is quite significant. A lot more than 228 or 231hp vs. 205hp would suggest. More like 242hp vs. 200hp.

Or maybe the old engine was overrated, or had such a torque curve that the car accelerated as if it was only ~190 hp.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Or maybe the old engine was overrated, or had such a torque curve that the car accelerated as if it was only ~190 hp.

The 1/4 times and traps where not indicative of a 190hp car.

[DarkSunrise]

The more dyno charts and drag comparisons I see of the 2nd gen, the more it seems like it’s underrated. Here’s a video of a stock 22 BRZ pulling pretty hard on a 213 whp tuned/FBO k20 civic si.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Manufacturers of anything are aware that they may have sales erosion of existing products when they introduce different models in a line up. The goal is to differentiate the products enough that this doesn't happen. You really need to understand this.

Supra 2.0 is already quite differentiated from the GR86. One is rated at 255hp and the other at 228hp. There isn't anything to hide or to underrate or overrate. One achieves a 13.3 seconds quarter-mile at 104 mph and is much heavier and the other achieves it at 13.9 seconds at 101 mph with less power and less weight (C&D numbers). One has a much more premium feel and sporty layout, the other is less sporty and is more convenient for every day usage with 2 back seats. Nothing strange or any kind of overlapping from my point of view. All the rest lies to people's minds hoping that they'll get a "supercar" in a 30k markup price.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Supra 2.0 is already quite differentiated from the GR86. One is rated at 255hp and the other at 228hp. There isn't anything to hide or to underrate or overrate. One achieves a 13.3 seconds quarter-mile at 104 mph and is much heavier and the other achieves it at 13.9 seconds at 101 mph with less power and less weight (C&D numbers). One has a much more premium feel and sporty layout, the other is less sporty and is more convenient for every day usage with 2 back seats. Nothing strange or any kind of overlapping from my point of view. All the rest lies to people's minds hoping that they'll get a "supercar" in a 30k markup price.

You forgot - one is available with a manual transmission, one is not.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Supra 2.0 is already quite differentiated from the GR86. One is rated at 255hp and the other at 228hp.

Yeah, that's the point he is making. If one were 255 and the other 242 it wouldn't be so clear.

Also, I don't think noticing a few hp higher than expected on dyno charts is the same as wishing for a supercar lol.

I don't know if it's underrated or not, but at this point there are several charts out there suggesting that it makes just a little more than the advertised power. I don't think it is unreasonable to speculate.

[Lantanafrs2]

I guess we no longer need to spend 10 grand on a k swap?

[Stonehorsw]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

I guess we no longer need to spend 10 grand on a k swap?

K swapped gen1 would be way faster than a gen2. Lighter, reving higher, more power.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by Stonehorsw

K swapped gen1 would be way faster than a gen2. Lighter, reving higher, more power.

Well it would be lighter and rev higher for sure. More power...IDK The FA24 is only 10whp behind full stock vs a K24A that with full bolt-ons makes 220whp.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

I guess we no longer need to spend 10 grand on a k swap?

Well $12k if you want HVAC and a decent K24A2.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Well $12k if you want HVAC and a decent K24A2.

And labor. Your time isn’t free.

[Dzmitry]

Just a side note from reading all this. A lot of people are claiming this "substantial" increase in 0-60 and quarter mile times. This is, of course, true as it has been proven. But it is also quite clear that these numbers are not all due to the power increase. Grip with better tires is a starting factor for one. The standard tires make it a good 0.3-0.5 seconds slower. But really, the biggest factor that I hate when comparing 0-60 and quarter miles is negating a cars true ability to accelerate.

I don't think this car is so SUBSTANTIALLY faster than the previous gen. Videos have clearly shown it pulls, but nothing that I would call substantial. In fact, several users who have been racing gen2 have shown videos of how it basically holds similar accelerations and speeds on straights (CSG Mike is an example. I am not going to go dig up the video, but it should be easy to find).

I think the LAUNCH with the heavily improved grip, and some decent power gains is where it gets all of its time improvements.

Again, YES, it's faster, but not that much. And it sure as hell can barely beat a GTI or a Veloster N that it has been compared to and rivaled against. Look at the 5-60 times (where acceleration really shows) and notice how gen2 is nearly a whopping second slower than either of the other two. The 17 BRZ hit 5-60 in 7.2 while 22 BRZ pulls it off in 6.5s. All of a sudden, this "over 1 second" and "substantial" difference isn't so many worlds apart.

I'm not commenting here to say that the 22 BRZ isn't what it's made out to be. It's everything we wanted (or maybe I wanted, aside from the looks). It's fast as hell now, and I couldn't love it more. I just think the 0-60 and quarter mile times have been over-stated a bit on here as these metrics will practically NEVER show in real world conditions and daily driving.

Tcoat is 100% right about what he said. As soon as people in a gen2 start pulling up along side other sports cars like the once mentioned above and getting smoked from a cruising speed, the internet will go back to its complaining. Not from enthusiasts like us, but mostly from those who don't care for the car or have always deemed it too slow.

The 21 Honda Odyssey 5-60 is 6.7s, it will literally stay right on the 22 BRZ the whole time, with no effort involved other than mashing the pedal. The fact that the driver in the BRZ will have to do more work to keep up with it, will likely result in some imperfections and actually fall behind. And what happens next? You guessed it, we'll have news on how "minivans are still faster than the slow twins!"

Let me reiterate one more time. Not bashing the twins. Best thing I've ever driven and I hope to own gen2 some day soon. But they are no miracle by any means. It's still just a 2.4L NA engine, so don't expect wonders. These 0-60 and quarter mile times are a bunch of baloney and will only really ever matter to racers. It's not what the twins are about, and it never was. They are drivers cars and they execute that character about them so damn well. That's all that counts.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

The more dyno charts and drag comparisons I see of the 2nd gen, the more it seems like it’s underrated. Here’s a video of a stock 22 BRZ pulling pretty hard on a 213 whp tuned/FBO k20 civic si.

This is perfect, I used to have an 8th gen back in the day, always loved that car, and motor.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Just a side note from reading all this. A lot of people are claiming this "substantial" increase in 0-60 and quarter mile times. This is, of course, true as it has been proven. But it is also quite clear that these numbers are not all due to the power increase. Grip with better tires is a starting factor for one. The standard tires make it a good 0.3-0.5 seconds slower.

I don't think the standard tires are slower in a straight line.
2018 BRZ tS with Pilot Sport 4 tires did 0-60 in 6.3s, 1/4-mile in 14.9s @ 94mph
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/
2017 BRZ with Primacies did 0-60 in 6.2s, 1/4-mile in 14.8s @ 95mph
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...l-test-review/

Trap speed in particular isn't as strongly correlated with tire grip as ET is anyway. The new car is legitimately ~6mph faster and upwards of a second quicker in the 1/4, that is a pretty big gain in performance, and more than anyone expected.

The 17 BRZ hit 5-60 in 7.2 while 22 BRZ pulls it off in 6.5s. All of a sudden, this "over 1 second" and "substantial" difference isn't so many worlds apart.

I'd say that's a pretty big delta, new car does 5-60 in 90% of the time the last-gen took. That's a bigger difference than 1/4-mile times (new car covers the 1/4 in about 94% of the time of last-gen).

I just think the 0-60 and quarter mile times have been over-stated a bit on here as these metrics will practically NEVER show in real world conditions and daily driving.

I don't think stating actual measured performance new vs. old is overstating anything. New car is quicker, period. By a bigger margin than advertised or expected. Good news!

Tcoat is 100% right about what he said. As soon as people in a gen2 start pulling up along side other sports cars like the once mentioned above and getting smoked from a cruising speed, the internet will go back to its complaining. Not from enthusiasts like us, but mostly from those who don't care for the car or have always deemed it too slow.

I really don't get all the weeping and wailing about *others* saying "it's too slow". Yeah, it's slowish for a sporty/performance oriented car. The new car is significantly less slow, which is a good thing if you ask me.

It's still just a 2.4L NA engine, so don't expect wonders.

I don't think anyone is. We have acceleration data, we all know what it will do. Nobody is thinking it's now a supercar.

These 0-60 and quarter mile times are a bunch of baloney and will only really ever matter to racers. It's not what the twins are about, and it never was. They are drivers cars and they execute that character about them so damn well. That's all that counts.

Being a bit quicker/faster does matter to a lot of us. And yeah, in the real world the driver should feel quite a bit more urge with throttle input what with +20% more torque most places and +30% or so in the midrange.

Long/short: it's a significant bump in performance, which a lot of people appreciate.