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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 11-21-2021, 04:57 PM   #155
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til reskinned beetles (356) are racecars.

Corvette is a good benchmark, and a clear barometer that Porsche decided selling cars was more important then being cool in the eyes of people who can't afford to buy their cars new.

BTW the smallest lightest Porsche currently is ~400# lighter then a Corvette.
Boxster - 3150
Corvette - 3535
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Old 11-21-2021, 05:07 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by EAGLE5 View Post
Why is it slower than the GT3?
Engine slightly detuned compared to GT3 RS (493 vs 502HP).
Less downforce.
Still has front struts.
Regular mechanical diff vs E-diff.
Narrower tyres (canít house rear tyres as wide as GT3).
Somehow heavier?

But the real reason, which explains most of the above? No Cayman can be allowed to eclipse its big brother, the 911. The product hierarchy must be maintained, and if that means the GT4 RS must be sandbaged so it is just behind a GT3 RS, so be it.
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Old 11-21-2021, 05:23 PM   #157
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til reskinned beetles (356) are racecars.
???
For sure people raced them, but when I spoke of Porsche making its name racing in the 50s and beating bigger/heavier/more-powerful cars in "faster" classes I was primarily speaking of the 550 (and original 718)...

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Corvette is a good benchmark, and a clear barometer that Porsche decided selling cars was more important then being cool in the eyes of people who can't afford to buy their cars new.
Obviously they should be more like Toyota and less like Porsche, since "selling cars" is the important thing...

I could afford a new Porsche, but honestly nothing that they make interests me that much. I do understand that coddling the backsides and egos of rich people is a much higher priority for them than producing legit lightweight sports cars.

(aside: "than" is a word!)

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BTW the smallest lightest Porsche currently is ~400# lighter then a Corvette.
Boxster - 3150
Corvette - 3535
Being only 400 lb. lighter than the massively overweight C8 is not so great a look for what should be a much smaller and MUCH lighterweight sports car. IMO!

Last edited by ZDan; 11-21-2021 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 11-21-2021, 07:23 PM   #158
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Oops forgot who I was responding to, enjoy.
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Old 11-21-2021, 08:06 PM   #159
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Local dealer has 1 remaining allocation. They want 249k for the last one which will be comming in miami blue with the 43k in options including the carbon exterior pkg... even without the 38k dealer markup. So much for that upgrade.
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Old 11-21-2021, 09:19 PM   #160
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I could afford a new Porsche, but honestly nothing that they make interests me that much. I do understand that coddling the backsides and egos of rich people is a much higher priority for them than producing legit lightweight sports cars.
Same, though I still respect their engineering a lot. Porsche cars are faster on tracks and also more DD friendly than much of the exotic competition.

That reminds me, I should go tell my friend who doesn't know what to do with his money to buy a GT3/GT4RS as an investment lol. He'll fit right in with all the other owners who never drive it, or just take it to the grocery store.
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Old 11-29-2021, 05:05 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Coaster View Post
It wouldn't sell really well...only to a small group of people. Sports cars in general are decreasing in numbers as SUV/ crossovers and minivans increase. Ford is an example.

There is one vehicle that is light weight (sub 2600 lb), RWD, and 50/50 eight balance... T50.
Porsche was literally founded to sell sports cars that nobody else was making. All they wanted was to be able to stay afloat and sell sports cars. So what you're suggesting is far from "unlikely". Sadly that company is long ago dead and buried. Now they just chase sales.

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Originally Posted by Red-86 View Post
Engine slightly detuned compared to GT3 RS (493 vs 502HP).
Less downforce.
Still has front struts.
Regular mechanical diff vs E-diff.
Narrower tyres (canít house rear tyres as wide as GT3).
Somehow heavier?
Starting with the latest GT4 (not the 2016 981 GT4), the front suspension is 100% lifted from the GT3. i.e. its double wishbone, not strut.
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Old 11-29-2021, 08:33 PM   #162
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Porsche was literally founded to sell sports cars that nobody else was making. All they wanted was to be able to stay afloat and sell sports cars. So what you're suggesting is far from "unlikely". Sadly that company is long ago dead and buried. Now they just chase sales.
Well, maybe, kinda, sorta.

Technically the first car designed by Ferdinand Porsche was the 1898 Egger-Lohner electric vehicle which was basically a motorized horse wagon.

Then several decades later when Porsche Motor Car company was founded, it was a design firm, not producing any cars. One of its first real cars was the Beetle, then tanks during WWII.

It wasn't until well after the War, and Ferdinand was released from prison without going to trial for war crimes, did he and his son build the 356 prototype.
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:45 AM   #163
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??? Porsche always made GT cars, only marginally lighter then the lightest pony cars. Their 'light sporty and cheap' cars (912/914/924/944) were flops up until the Boxster.

'66 Base Mustang: ~2,600 lbs
'66 Base 911: ~2,400 lbs

'21 Base 911: ~3,400 lbs
'21 Base Mustang: ~3,500 lbs

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"Always"? Porsche existed prior to the 911...
Porsche made its name in the 50s into the 60s racing small light-weight race cars that punched above their category and frequently took overall wins against bigger/heavier and much more powerful cars in faster classes.

Data I have shows a V8 64 1/2 Mustang being ~2800 lb.
For sure 2600 lb. isn't a "typical pony car weight", not by a long shot...



Honestly, 60s/early-70s 911s were more like 800-1200 lb. lighter than "pony cars". And the *lightweight* Porsche model (when it existed) was something like 1200-1500 lb. lighter.

The base 64 1/2 to 66 Mustangs are not even remotely Pony cars anyway.
The were cheap throw away import fighting econobox coupes with a 0 to 60 of around 3 hours and the handling of a horse drawn milk cart. Even the 260 and 289 base two barrel V8 versions were crap. The only ones that created the whole Pony car genre were the higher output 289 V8 and they made up about 2% of the total built. The perception that the most powerful ones were plentiful is skewed by the fact that those are what you see as the survivors now.
All in all to throw the base model weights around in a Pony car discussion is deceiving.
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:54 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
Well, maybe, kinda, sorta.

Technically the first car designed by Ferdinand Porsche was the 1898 Egger-Lohner electric vehicle which was basically a motorized horse wagon.

Then several decades later when Porsche Motor Car company was founded, it was a design firm, not producing any cars. One of its first real cars was the Beetle, then tanks during WWII.

It wasn't until well after the War, and Ferdinand was released from prison without going to trial for war crimes, did he and his son build the 356 prototype.
Of note is that the tank that Porsche designed was a hybrid and completely propelled by electric motors.
It also wasn't a "tank" in the true sense of the word. It was a tank hunter with the gun fixed in the hull instead of a turret.
There were not many of them since they just used the existing chassis from the design proposal samples to make them but they were greatly feared and had a spectacular kill ratio.
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Old 12-09-2021, 02:49 PM   #165
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Porsche was literally founded to sell sports cars that nobody else was making. All they wanted was to be able to stay afloat and sell sports cars. So what you're suggesting is far from "unlikely". Sadly that company is long ago dead and buried. Now they just chase sales.



Starting with the latest GT4 (not the 2016 981 GT4), the front suspension is 100% lifted from the GT3. i.e. its double wishbone, not strut.
Front suspension from GT3s were strut until 2022 GT3. The GT4 came out in 2020 so it used 991.2 GT3's design. They definitely didn't put double wishbone in the front of a 718 GT4.
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Old 12-09-2021, 07:00 PM   #166
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Well, I don't want a daily-driver with no interior! Also, 45F/55R weight distribution >> 55F/45R for a rear-drive sports car. And I don't want a roadster, want fixed-roof coupe.

But anyway, point is, I think Porsche could and should make a legit smaller, lighter-weight sports car. Too bad they're not really interested in that any more, although that's what made them great in the first place.
Get a 987.2 as a weekend toy and take the interior out and go all out lightweight. You could probably do that for cheaper than what Porsche would sell a new lightweight sports car for.

Honestly, the Twins are the lightweight Porsche, minus the mid engine.
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Old 12-09-2021, 08:03 PM   #167
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Get a 987.2 as a weekend toy and take the interior out and go all out lightweight. You could probably do that for cheaper than what Porsche would sell a new lightweight sports car for.

Honestly, the Twins are the lightweight Porsche, minus the mid engine.

Oh the desire to try an EZ36r swapped twin is strong. If only there was a direct injection retrofit available.
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Old 12-09-2021, 09:37 PM   #168
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Get a 987.2 as a weekend toy and take the interior out and go all out lightweight. You could probably do that for cheaper than what Porsche would sell a new lightweight sports car for.
Honestly, the Twins are the lightweight Porsche, minus the mid engine.
I did get a 987.2 back in 2018! 2.9 6-speed. Honestly I never warmed up to the nonlinear variable-ratio steering, and the car is a bit bigger than it needs to be, and of course heavier... Mine was 3050 lb. with fuel. Did minor mods (stiffer/lower PASM springs, GT3 adjustable lower front control arms for front camber). Compared it back-to-back on the road and at the track over the course of the year versus the similarly modded BRZ, idea was to keep the one I liked best. I kept the BRZ and it was no contest! Mainly because BRZ *way* more fun just driving around town at 2/10ths while the Porsche just felt aloof and disinterested until up around 8/10ths plus at the track. Honestly, twins would be perfect for me except for the whole +2 thing with the rear wheels shoved ridiculously far aft, giving it shite F/R weight distribution...
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