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Old 10-29-2021, 12:56 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by CrowsFeast View Post
If you read through a couple of oil cooler threads you'll see ZDan argues pretty heavily against the need for an oil cooler. I won't say he's wrong, nor will I say if he is right, but I am saying there's not much point in arguing with him because you're not going to change his mind

Decide for yourself if you want/need one, sounds like you've decided to get one. I wouldn't worry too much about the slight extra length in hose. compared to the pressure drop in the core, the drop in the hoses will be negligible.
The decision about getting an oil cooler is fixed, yes It is nice to see other opinions though, but I have mine

I was only concern about if it was the right cooler. And I think you are right, the small length must be negligible, even I will use a 13 row setrab instead of 16

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Taken from the comments of Moto iQ FRS build. Just a couple engineers talking. Some people only think about the oil temps and ignore what the oil is trying to protect..


Mike Kojima says: May 1, 2021 at 10:09 pm
Bearings start to lose load-bearing capacity at 260f oil temp, they melt at around 600 degrees so they start to lose strength by the time the measurable oil temp is around 260. The oil is carrying heat away from the bearings.

Dan DeRosia says:
May 3, 2021 at 5:15 pm
From doing lab R&D for a company that solely did bearings, I’d go a bit more conservative than that; 260F is sort of where I’ve seen stuff drop off a cliff. Bearing overlay is already at about half its room temperature strength at 210F. That’s ignoring what you’re doing to your oil viscosity, though this is talking in terms of temperature at the bearing.

Interesting. In the end I was and I will be always worried about the oil at those temps...

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Old 10-29-2021, 01:28 PM   #16
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The decision about getting an oil cooler is fixed, yes It is nice to see other opinions though, but I have mine



I was only concern about if it was the right cooler. And I think you are right, the small length must be negligible, even I will use a 13 row setrab instead of 16









Interesting. In the end I was and I will be always worried about the oil at those temps...



Larger is always better for a heat exchanger IMO

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Old 10-29-2021, 01:36 PM   #17
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Larger is always better for a heat exchanger IMO

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As long as it’s thermostatically controlled.
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Old 10-29-2021, 01:55 PM   #18
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As long as it’s thermostatically controlled.
Separate feature entirely. Closing the thermostat essentially means you don't have an oil cooler. So that doesn't improve the usefulness of a small core. It's better to have too much cooling and work backwards because you can't work forwards

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Old 10-29-2021, 02:02 PM   #19
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Separate feature entirely. Closing the thermostat essentially means you don't have an oil cooler. So that doesn't improve the usefulness of a small core. It's better to have too much cooling and work backwards because you can't work forwards

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I think it’s actually when the thermostat is “closed” that’s when the oil cooler is fully activated. The open “door” in the thermostat leads directly to the oil filter, so the thermostat closes that door at a certain temperature forcing the oil into the outlet port, through the cooler core, and into the inlet port which just so happens so let oil behind the closed door.

Oil will always follow the path of least resistance, so even when you are at say 130F the door will partially closed and you’re oil will be like “oh shit, that door is starting to close, but that open outlet port is look appealing…I’m gonna go into both until the door fully closes”
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Old 10-29-2021, 02:03 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ashikabi View Post
Separate feature entirely. Closing the thermostat essentially means you don't have an oil cooler. So that doesn't improve the usefulness of a small core. It's better to have too much cooling and work backwards because you can't work forwards

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If your cooler is too big and it’s not on a thermostat you can fail to reach operating temp. That’s a problem too.
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Old 10-29-2021, 02:10 PM   #21
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If your cooler is too big and it’s not on a thermostat you can fail to reach operating temp. That’s a problem too.
I'm aware. If you're trying to size your cooler so you can hit temp in the winter but provide maximum cooling in the summer you're doing it wrong. Therefore the larger cooler is always better for maximum cooling capacity since you can dial it back in the winter via thermostat or covering the cooler

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Old 10-30-2021, 12:52 PM   #22
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I'm aware. If you're trying to size your cooler so you can hit temp in the winter but provide maximum cooling in the summer you're doing it wrong. Therefore the larger cooler is always better for maximum cooling capacity since you can dial it back in the winter via thermostat or covering the cooler
Wouldn't it be better to figure out what you need to achieve the temperature you want under max temp operational conditions? Getting the absolute biggest cooler you can and struggling to fit it seems like a waste of space/time/money/effort.

Also don't most thermostat setups allow *some* oil to circulate through the cooler? Seems like a lot of peeps with coolers have run into issues getting oil up to temp in the winter, I think it's a legit concern that would be affected by how overkill you choose to go.

All this begs the question, what max oil temperature is acceptable? For me, for my usage, with the oil I run, 275F is acceptable. So I already have the correct size oil cooler. And oil gets up to 190F after a short drive even just at low speeds in town. Yay!
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Old 10-30-2021, 01:15 PM   #23
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Wouldn't it be better to figure out what you need to achieve the temperature you want under max temp operational conditions? Getting the absolute biggest cooler you can and struggling to fit it seems like a waste of space/time/money/effort.



Also don't most thermostat setups allow *some* oil to circulate through the cooler? Seems like a lot of peeps with coolers have run into issues getting oil up to temp in the winter, I think it's a legit concern that would be affected by how overkill you choose to go.



All this begs the question, what max oil temperature is acceptable? For me, for my usage, with the oil I run, 275F is acceptable. So I already have the correct size oil cooler. And oil gets up to 190F after a short drive even just at low speeds in town. Yay!
If you want to calculate how many BTUs the engine produces minus the estimated cooling capacity of X size cooler at Y ambient temp and Z oil flow. Taking ducting, wind speed, and air pressure into account; be my guest. But since no one here is a thermal dynamics engineer with way too much time on their hands, the most practical course of action is to simply take the largest available cooler that will fit and work backwards to reach operating temp. Covering your heat exchanger in the winter is as simple as taping cardboard over it. But if you get a cooler and it's not big enough, then you're screwed.

To my knowledge thermostatic plates flow approximately 10% when closed. I'm pretty confident that this small level of flow will not see significant temp difference between a large and a small cooler in the winter because both coolers will overcool that small volume. And it's only 10% of the total. I am for having a thermostat, but that's not what the discussion is about, and it's a separate part of the system

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Old 10-30-2021, 01:48 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ashikabi View Post
If you want to calculate how many BTUs the engine produces minus the estimated cooling capacity of X size cooler at Y ambient temp and Z oil flow. Taking ducting, wind speed, and air pressure into account; be my guest. But since no one here is a thermal dynamics engineer with way too much time on their hands, the most practical course of action is to simply take the largest available cooler that will fit and work backwards to reach operating temp.
Neither of those options is as practical as surveying those who do similar track usage with oil coolers and seeing what kind of temps they hit vs. ambient. It's not impossible to get some data to inform choice of oil cooler...

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Covering your heat exchanger in the winter is as simple as taping cardboard over it. But if you get a cooler and it's not big enough, then you're screwed.
Covering a heat exchanger does not completely reduce its effectiveness to zero, particularly with cold ambient temps. It's going to take a LOT longer to get up to an operational temp that is still likely to be sub-optimal. I know that one Savagegoose fella resorted to uninstalling his for the winter months due to oil not getting warm enough. Then it leaked after he re-installed it! Kinda hilarious but my schadenfreude is showing...

Regarding "if it's not big enough, you're *screwed*", it begs the question, how cool do you think your oil needs to be kept? What max temp is acceptable for the oil you use and your usage? What are the real-world consequences if you exceed this assumed "max allowable oil temp" by, say, 5-10F?
If you're doing "casual" track days and this happens after say 5-6 laps, I'd hardly say that means you're *screwed*.

This kinda happened to me this year. I kept getting what I *thought* was fuel-starvation after a handful of laps but lo it was my custom tune I got this year when I installed a header, it was cutting power at 275F, which would limit me to ~5-6 laps. I didn't consider myself "screwed", though it was a bit of an inconvenience and source of confusion... Time trials are 3 laps so they were unaffected

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Old 10-30-2021, 02:42 PM   #25
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Neither of those options is as practical as surveying those who do similar track usage with oil coolers and seeing what kind of temps they hit vs. ambient. It's not impossible to get some data to inform choice of oil cooler...

Covering a heat exchanger does not completely reduce its effectiveness to zero, particularly with cold ambient temps. It's going to take a LOT longer to get up to an operational temp that is still likely to be sub-optimal. I know that one Savagegoose fella resorted to uninstalling his for the winter months due to oil not getting warm enough. Then it leaked after he re-installed it! Kinda hilarious but my schadenfreude is showing...

Regarding "if it's not big enough, you're *screwed*", it begs the question, how cool do you think your oil needs to be kept? What max temp is acceptable for the oil you use and your usage? What are the real-world consequences if you exceed this assumed "max allowable oil temp" by, say, 5-10F?
If you're doing "casual" track days and this happens after say 5-6 laps, I'd hardly say that means you're *screwed*.

This kinda happened to me this year. I kept getting what I *thought* was fuel-starvation after a handful of laps but lo it was my custom tune I got this year when I installed a header, it was cutting power at 275F, which would limit me to ~5-6 laps. I didn't consider myself "screwed", though it was a bit of an inconvenience and source of confusion... Time trials are 3 laps so they were unaffected
You are"screwed" as in: there is no way forward without significant investment and probably significant opportunity cost when you realize the issue. For example you're at a track day and lose half your run time because of heat problems. You just happened to be running under special trikes and we're therefore not affected. Now when I lost my FA20 would another 10 degrees of cooling saved my motor? Maybe. I had a mishimoto oil cooler. I can't tell you what the MAX oil temp should be. But I can tell you that I want my temps as low as possible on the track.

You can't just tape cardboard to your cooler and get another 10 degrees of cooling. But you can reduce cooling. And if the climate is so cold that even with a thermostat your oil can't get to temp, then a small oil cooler isn't going to be any better than a large one. Covering your cooler completely regardless of size will be more effective at reducing cooling than a thermostat ever could be. And it's not uncommon at all in winter regions to block all or part of your grill in the winter. Your radiator affects oil temps too. Much more than an oil cooler will simply because of it's much larger size. An oil cooler is simply a supplementary radiator adding to the over all sum of the cars cooling capacity. Again, if you can't get your oil up to temp then you should be taking other steps to remedy that.

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Old 10-30-2021, 03:11 PM   #26
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You are"screwed" as in: there is no way forward without significant investment and probably significant opportunity cost when you realize the issue. For example you're at a track day and lose half your run time because of heat problems. You just happened to be running under special trikes and we're therefore not affected.
I would bet most people who track these do HPDEs and aren't racing enduros. *IF* such person was hoping to keep oil temps below, say, 250F (ridic conservative unless you're running 0w20), and sees temps start to creep above 250F after a few laps, maybe it's not that big a deal for them to either come in a bit early or perhaps accept higher temps for a few more laps, and then get oil more appropriate for 250F+ before next event.

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Now when I lost my FA20 would another 10 degrees of cooling saved my motor? Maybe. I had a mishimoto oil cooler.
Hmmm, every time I hear about engine failures due to oiling issues, I immediately look over to the poster's sig, and *every* time I see it's a 2013...

Also worth noting that these failures have happened both *with* an oil cooler as well as without one...

If a reliable supply of oil isn't making it to all the bearings, you're gonna have trouble, whether you're running 225F oil temps or 275F with appropriate viscosity and HTHS...

Curious, what oil temps *were* you running with the Mishimoto cooler? And what oil?
Regarding whether another 10 degrees of cooling would have "saved" your motor, it might have gotten you another session, maybe another track day or two, but I have to suspect you had oil delivery issues and it was just a matter of time...
Did you rebuild existing motor and if so were any possible oil delivery issues addressed?

Quote:
I can't tell you what the MAX oil temp should be. But I can tell you that I want my temps as low as possible on the track.
Like, 200F? 175F? Ambient?!

For my usage, particularly with tires chosen for time trials (i.e. need very quick 3 laps from cold, don't need 30 or even 15 minutes of grip), 275F doesn't bother me for a few laps at a time, running 5w30 with 3.7 cP HTHS @150C.

I don't see a need to further discuss problems with oil coming up to temp in the winter, I have no experience there, I just know it has been an issue for some people with oil coolers (except for the Forester oil cooler/heater). I do like the fact that my oil gets to 190F very quickly as I daily through RI winters (which aren't *that* cold but still).
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Old 10-30-2021, 03:58 PM   #27
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I would bet most people who track these do HPDEs and aren't racing enduros. *IF* such person was hoping to keep oil temps below, say, 250F (ridic conservative unless you're running 0w20), and sees temps start to creep above 250F after a few laps, maybe it's not that big a deal for them to either come in a bit early or perhaps accept higher temps for a few more laps, and then get oil more appropriate for 250F+ before next event.



Hmmm, every time I hear about engine failures due to oiling issues, I immediately look over to the poster's sig, and *every* time I see it's a 2013...

Also worth noting that these failures have happened both *with* an oil cooler as well as without one...

If a reliable supply of oil isn't making it to all the bearings, you're gonna have trouble, whether you're running 225F oil temps or 275F with appropriate viscosity and HTHS...

Curious, what oil temps *were* you running with the Mishimoto cooler? And what oil?
Regarding whether another 10 degrees of cooling would have "saved" your motor, it might have gotten you another session, maybe another track day or two, but I have to suspect you had oil delivery issues and it was just a matter of time...
Did you rebuild existing motor and if so were any possible oil delivery issues addressed?


Like, 200F? 175F? Ambient?!

For my usage, particularly with tires chosen for time trials (i.e. need very quick 3 laps from cold, don't need 30 or even 15 minutes of grip), 275F doesn't bother me for a few laps at a time, running 5w30 with 3.7 cP HTHS @150C.

I don't see a need to further discuss problems with oil coming up to temp in the winter, I have no experience there, I just know it has been an issue for some people with oil coolers (except for the Forester oil cooler/heater). I do like the fact that my oil gets to 190F very quickly as I daily through RI winters (which aren't *that* cold but still).
I was using 5w30. I dont recall what the oil temp was as this was several years ago, but it was the hottest day of the year. I swapped an LS instead of rebuilding. Our track session was set up in 20 minute intervals. So if you wanted to maximize track time, you need to be able to run 20 minutes straight.

Suggesting 200 degrees or ambient as a possible oil temp is simply being petty as there is no oil cooler you could run that would achieve a temperature close to that. I believe common sense would dictate that running a second radiator as an oil cooler was never being suggested.

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Old 10-30-2021, 04:29 PM   #28
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If you want to calculate how many BTUs the engine produces minus the estimated cooling capacity of X size cooler at Y ambient temp and Z oil flow. Taking ducting, wind speed, and air pressure into account; be my guest. But since no one here is a thermal dynamics engineer with way too much time on their hands, the most practical course of action is to simply take the largest available cooler that will fit and work backwards to reach operating temp. Covering your heat exchanger in the winter is as simple as taping cardboard over it. But if you get a cooler and it's not big enough, then you're screwed.




With this setup, at about standard ambient temp, NA engine running full bore, it will start riding the thermostat at about 3/4 capacity, and still not over-cool when wide open. I turn it down to a smidge under half and still get up to temp in a few minutes when dailying in PNW winters where it occasionally gets below freezing. My goal was to build an endurance setup. #achieved

Now I just have to consider transmission and diff.

But I'm probably wasting my time and money because you don't need an oil cooler.
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