KPower Industries K24 swap

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by redlined600

I'm also not convinced that fa24s are fully reliable on track yet.

It's 100% not reliable, so at least you can count on that.

[redlined600]

Originally Posted by series.trackday

I'm assuming the lower initial price on your part was due to purchasing the partial kit and assembling some components/alternatives yourself by getting cheaper/used parts?

Not everything was cheaper, but generally yes.

[RedReplicant]

I've been pretty critical of KPower, but as I put two years of fairly heavy track use on my K BRZ at competitive pace and I am wrapping up a K swap on my new car that doesn't have a kit I have a few thoughts in retrospect.

Their kit has flaws, but a lot of them have been remedied by KPower themselves or by other people in the community that have engineered solutions or figured out what works and what does not.

* Pressure plates blowing up are no longer an issue since we all know
* Driveshaft vibration has allegedly been solved by KPower, but we also know that shortening the stock driveshaft 5.5" and spacing it down works
* Throttle body bolts / throttle body internal TPS dying has been solved by Emile's adapter sold through ASM
* Selector shaft holes ovaling and allowing mis-shifts has been solved by Harrison who sells a steel selector shaft
* The KPower wiring harness has been improved and we all know it's an issue so care is taken to pull test / anchor it well / etc. A number of CAN issues have also been solved by Haltech CAN protocol updates.
* Getting the car to bleed has mostly been solved by running the second heater hose, trimming out the thermostat jiggle pin, and raising the car to the correct orientation (or just using a vacuum bleeder)
* KPower fixed the improperly tapped water neck outlet threads so there won't be a leak there going forward
* We know where the exhaust burns the chassis so heatshielding is a known thing
* We know it drops oil pressure slightly on corner entry when the oil is at the full mark and with testing we know filling to the twist in the oil stick eliminates any drop
* We know to limit throttle opening to about 92% for max power with Haltech
* We know to watch the engine mounts for sagging before the pan hits the subframe

KPower still fails at lead time and communication to existing owners when issues are discovered.

The price of the kit isn't horrible after having pieced together everything on my own and considering the amount of time I've spent on it.

Hell, wiring harness alone I am easily over a hundred hours of planning, routing, cutting, finding the right OEM connectors / pins, crimping, etc - it's insane.

Doing everything over again knowing what I know now I'd still buy a number of pieces from the KPower kit.

Anyway, just my thoughts after having done a non-kit K swap into a different chassis over the last couple months and doing its first start over this past weekend.

[RT-BRZ]

Originally Posted by autoracer86

Investment HAHA all of this is burning money you will never get back. I never said it was worth the cost or that I could afford it. Just that I would go K24 over a FA24.

As for your wrong car argument I don't disagree but not everyone lives in America... Getting into something like a cayman here plus getting it track ready would cost me like 40k not to mention doubling my yearly road tax. So... spending 20k on a motor swap for my car is way cheaper then getting something already faster that I would want.

Not that I am doing a motor swap but if I could pass my local inspection with a k24 I rather spend the 20k on it then 10k to do a fa24 swap.

Also the 1% is billionaires I don't even make 6 figures a year dude.

Touchè

[RT-BRZ]

Originally Posted by redlined600

Keep in mind the fa24 swap didn't exist when I started this. The k24 has about 1k rpm of powerband on top of a fa24, which might matter to some people. I'm also not convinced that fa24s are fully reliable on track yet.



That's a stretch, it's almost a spec motor in Gridlife ClubTR and GLTC at this point. There are also multiple people running k24 swaps in NASA TT with success.

I knew as soon as I hit "Submit Reply" that I would be flamed to hell and back.

That being said, I'm not saying you or anyone else is wrong. There is very little about doing this stuff that's "right" but that price is very steep given all that it really accomplishes. I also agree that the FA2x platform has shown some serious weakness but at least a FA24 is looking to be a pretty smart upgrade if you can address the weaknesses for lower cost.

Maybe the $17k is a "somebody else is doing the work price" but, as much as I hate to say it, a LS swap seems to be a much bigger bang for the buck.

Again, I'm not knocking anything but the money involved here. The K24 swap was very high on my list but if $17k is the number then I'm going to have to think of a different approach.

[RT-BRZ]

Originally Posted by series.trackday

Is this what people mean by hot take?

Used K24A2s with low mileage can be had for $1500-1700 including shipping. The majority of the cost is in the actual swap components (adapters, bushings/mounts) and labor.

I also don't know what you mean by "motorsports benefit other than track days". Several series have regulations which allow for swaps. A 200 HP K24 has more area under the curve than a 200 HP FA20.

The FA20 motor is known to be weak in several ways for prolonged track/race use, whereas the K24 platform is known to be strong even in stock form. This very argument is one I had with myself within the past month, and it's what brought me back to this thread after originally saying the pricing on the swap kit was outlandish and ridiculous. Buying a re-engineered/modified shortblock which fixes the oiling priority issues of the FA20 is over $4K, adding a larger capacity baffled oil pan, higher-quality oil pump, and modified pickup is another grand. Add labor costs to R&R an engine and swap your stock block for the modified block and you're at $8K and you still have an FA20. IF you're going to go for adding power, you now still have all of the issues of the FA20 platform.


Motor swaps are not an investment. Car mods are not an investment. If by "investment" you mean a ROI in terms of winning races/competitions - you can't win a race you can't finish.


As far as "part of the 1%" - you okay, dude? There's a massive difference between someone who makes 100K/yr, budgets decently, and saves for a year or two to afford a big expense for their main hobby, and someone who makes millions of dollars a year.

Finally - what suspension upgrades are you referring to? The FA20-K24 swap leaves the balance of the car barely moved and the overall weight reduction over the front axle of is the same as buying a couple lightweight race seats.

I addressed in my reply to him but all I'm saying is a $17k engine swap is hard to swallow.

As for the money, I'm in the 2% but I have a family and their future matters too. To each their own when it comes to money.

[RedReplicant]

I've posted my spreadsheet on what it costs part by part before, when it comes down to it $10-15k on a swap is pretty much whatever in the context of what it costs to run 20-30 track days a year between entry, consumables, breakage/damage, etc if you're competitive. These things are capable of running deep into the pack and anything much faster is going to be a lot more expensive to build / run.

I sold my car for asking price ($32k), I know what I paid for it originally ($25k), I know more or less what I spent after doing the fudge math of selling/buying parts (~$2k out of pocket for my swap since my car came with a good motor, Harrop SC, bunch of mods that got removed for the swap, etc), etc. Really not that bad in the grand scheme of things.

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

And get all of the inherent drawbacks and short comings of that engine instead of something awesome like a high revving K! YAY!!

I don't see many drawbacks. The Oil issue is already can be fixed. Honestly for those who can do alot of the labor and fab work, K24 is a great option. But let's not deny that FA24 NA running on e85 and can get about 240WHP and a healthy 200 WTQ tuned. Yea its early, but my gen 1 motor running e85 and boost for a period is still ticking out on track near 100K on ODO. As Gen 2 motors get cheaper, I still stand by my statement that in my situation the FA24 is the better option.

[RedReplicant]

One of the major downsides is the bullshit lock-in of dealing with ECUTek, locked tunes, and dealing with the common tuners if you're not looking for a tune in a can with some small adjustments. That is now negated by the plug-in Link and others.

But yeah, the FA24 changes the calculus and it wasn't really an option until the last couple of months. When I did my swap there weren't even second gen dyno numbers floating around.

[autoracer86]

Originally Posted by RedReplicant

One of the major downsides is the bullshit lock-in of dealing with ECUTek, locked tunes, and dealing with the common tuners if you're not looking for a tune in a can with some small adjustments. That is now negated by the plug-in Link and others.

But yeah, the FA24 changes the calculus and it wasn't really an option until the last couple of months. When I did my swap there weren't even second gen dyno numbers floating around.

Links finally dropped their plug in ecu option for the 86. it's not cheap at over 2k but it is a full stand alone ecu option. Pretty sure its FA20 only though

[RedReplicant]

I know of someone running a FA24 in a first gen on it There is hope

[autoracer86]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

I don't see many drawbacks. The Oil issue is already can be fixed. Honestly for those who can do alot of the labor and fab work, K24 is a great option. But let's not deny that FA24 NA running on e85 and can get about 240WHP and a healthy 200 WTQ tuned. Yea its early, but my gen 1 motor running e85 and boost for a period is still ticking out on track near 100K on ODO. As Gen 2 motors get cheaper, I still stand by my statement that in my situation the FA24 is the better option.

I think people are swapping to get away from the FA motor for whatever reason they have not for power gains. You could make a fair bit of power with FI on the FA platform.

Like for less motor and hassle I could get a harrop and make more power than a k24 but I still think a k24 is a cooler option and less headache and would be more reliable/ easier to cool on track.

Also don't get me wrong I think the FA24 is a pretty sweet swap for the gen1 users and makes a lot of sense but if I could have both options be road legal I would pick the K even at double the price. It's just cooler and a much more popular platform for support in the racing/tuner world and only growing.

You don't hear about people putting FA20/FA24 motors in other cars now do you lol. You can find K series in anything from Honda to Ferrari

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by RedReplicant

One of the major downsides is the bullshit lock-in of dealing with ECUTek, locked tunes, and dealing with the common tuners if you're not looking for a tune in a can with some small adjustments. That is now negated by the plug-in Link and others.

But yeah, the FA24 changes the calculus and it wasn't really an option until the last couple of months. When I did my swap there weren't even second gen dyno numbers floating around.

IMO ECUtek is fine. Zach at CSG does a great job. He tuned my FA20 when boosted and back to NA. Other than that I never touch my ECU or anything. And since you keep the ECU... you keep the license. For race shops who have the ability to fab, drop the motor when needed K24 all the way. But for normal people, FA24 will be the much cheaper option.

[RedReplicant]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

IMO ECUtek is fine. Zach at CSG does a great job. He tuned my FA20 when boosted and back to NA. Other than that I never touch my ECU or anything. And since you keep the ECU... you keep the license. For race shops who have the ability to fab, drop the motor when needed K24 all the way. But for normal people, FA24 will be the much cheaper option.

It doesn't really work when you need to have a few tunes for optimizing power to weight classes or similar. Also, without getting too far into it my experience there was pretty much the tipping point that had me say fuck it and pull my FA20/Harrop for the K.

If I need to drop 5whp or pick up 5whp it takes me two minutes in Haltech without talking to a tuner.