SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

I hope this doesn't come off as mean or being a **** or anything, but I watched your video and there was definitely 9 tenths you could have taken off by slowing down more, turning in earlier and tightening your lines.

No worries I simply don't see it but that could be because I was there and have a biased view? I always welcome suggestions and different views on lines.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by chkltcow

We also used a friend's FRS on the OEM Michelins for "The Prius Challenge". Everybody that drove the car had a blast and wanted a Toyobaru of their own. They all said it wasn't very fast on those tires, but it was certainly fun. After putting 15 runs into it basically hotlapping... the tires were so hot that you couldn't touch them, but the tread looked as perfect as the day he bought the car.

I'm surprised they lasted 15 runs. I'm in AZ so maybe that has something to do with it, but after 3 runs and no spraying the tires got so hot they were undrivable. I abandoned the run and slowed off the pace and still almost spun it a second time. Still to date the only time the car actually scared me.

[Wheeljack]

Originally Posted by chkltcow

Back from the 24hr AutoX, and I want to go back to that "chasing settings" thing. I made a few runs in my car... was mid 45s and felt pretty good about it. I knew there was .3-.4 seconds I left on course... but whatever. Then I put a friend of mine in it that normally drives Kart Mod. On his 2nd run, he puts down a 44.5xx. "MOTHERF#$@ER! How in the hell do I find another second?"

So instead of tinkering with the car and chasing settings, I just had to go out and be faster. He showed me it was in the car, and I just had to find it. All my fault! Eventually I ran a 44.421 and learned a hell of a lot from chasing down that last second.

We also used a friend's FRS on the OEM Michelins for "The Prius Challenge". Everybody that drove the car had a blast and wanted a Toyobaru of their own. They all said it wasn't very fast on those tires, but it was certainly fun. After putting 15 runs into it basically hotlapping... the tires were so hot that you couldn't touch them, but the tread looked as perfect as the day he bought the car.

Overall, I like driving my car on Z2s, especially in the rain. However, I was sad to trash a perfectly good set of tires in order to get them. The car was much easier to slide around, and it was a lot of fun. The only problem was that I could never tell how much time I was leaving on the table due to the tires. Putting the Z2s made the car faster as well as showing me how much work I had to do as a driver. Perhpas we could lobby Michellin to offer contingency for a special primacy only class. I'd call the class Cstreet Racing All Primacys. Let's start writing the SCCA for the new C.R.A.P. tire class.

[Kido1986]

Hahah. 10/10. Would read again

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by renfield90

That 370Z move has been proposed in EVERY fastrack this year with the same response. It'll be interesting to see what happens after Nationals. I think it will move; I don't think the Miata guys are happy about running against someone with more than double the horsepower, we aren't happy, and probably the RX8 guys aren't super enthused either. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner...

If Fenter wins though, it becomes a little tough to make that argument. I'll be rooting for Stuart, and not just because I'm a West Coast guy.

I would like to think the 370Z would be moved, but I gotta feeling it might not. Looking at the Tour results for this year, it is tough to find a win by the 370Z other than the 1 by Jeff at Crows.

Personally, I think the results are misleading. The 370Z is much faster than the twins or any other car in the class, but there are just not that many top drivers competing with the car nationally. Jeff Stuart's 2nd place finish in SD isn't good data, for he was on fairly worn tires (SD surface rewards fuller tread) and Paul Brown's times are a bit slow for Spring Nats (rain maybe?). For Pros, there is good turnout and data, but the SEB doesn't take Pros into account for classing.

Either we need hope that the Z really shows it true potential at Nationals or start to send letters in to just push for the class change.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

No worries I simply don't see it but that could be because I was there and have a biased view? I always welcome suggestions and different views on lines.

Originally Posted by Laloosh

I was third with a 55.5. I don't consider myself to be on the same level as Chris, but 9 tenths imo would be very difficult to find in my car on the current set up.

your mind set is incorrect and it looks like it's time for you to aquire a proper datalogger.




an analysis of your day's worth of runs will show you whether you're driving the car to its maximum potential. In fact, some things can jump at you quite quickly.

Even the days when I do well (finish top 10 overall pax), a post-analysis reveals that had I put together the best sectionals together in one magic run, I would have been 1.5-2s faster! And even if you account a 50% penalty on the theoreticals (since statistically some sections would be faster because the previous was done slower but better, etc), then that's still a 0.7-1s potential over my base time... which in most cases would have been enough to take the event.


therefore, unless you can provide data logs that show that your fastest run is faster all your runs at every single section and your at peak lat and long gs all the way around, then you'll always have time to find.


furthermore, putting your logger into others' cars will also open up your eyes quite a bit.


there's a guy that I race with, who drives a brz, when we combine the best of both of our driving styles our theoreticals are 2-3s faster!! on a 60s course!!




check out my thread
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70598


particularly post #11, and you'll see how even on my fastest run that landed me 4th overall pax... I believe I had potential to go faster, there's easly 1s in there getting lost.

[Biggins]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

your mind set is incorrect and it looks like it's time for you to aquire a proper datalogger.

Why would you suggest a datalogger? It's only going to show what-if and what-could've-beens just like a video would. I just starting using video this year (only because my co-driver has a GoPro), but I can tell after one view what I did right/wrong.

I have to agree that I don't see much more time for @Laloosh to find on that course. If he's within 0.9 of Chris, that's probably good enough to trophy at a National event.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Biggins

Why would you suggest a datalogger? It's only going to show what-if and what-could've-beens just like a video would.

um.. not sure how to say this without insulting your intelligence... the process of learning and changing your paradigms is long and tedious and requires a certain level of determination and willingness


it's not a "what if", it's an analysis of what you think was your best driving and a quantification and classification of shortcomings. EI, you tell yourself that what you thought was true is actually wrong, so the next time you're out there you'll learn to push your senses further.




I can guarantee that if you take datalogging seriously you'll significantly increase the rate at which you aquire new skills


but only if you're willing to admit personal defeat at the end of every single event even if you do well.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Biggins

I have to agree that I don't see much more time for @Laloosh to find on that course. If he's within 0.9 of Chris, that's probably good enough to trophy at a National event.

Really? I can see at least a handful of places where he was 3ft or more off the the cone he was trying to apex and more than a few places where he entered too fast and pushed off the line he was trying to make. It may or may not add up to .9sec, hard to tell from video since you have no idea on the limits of the car, but each of those times he gets off the line is adding up.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't by any means call the run sloppy or bad and I am definitely not saying that I could do better, but saying that there is no way to take a second off that run is just plain false.

[7thgear]

and again, what we dont see is:


1. how much throttle and where are you actually using it?
2. how hard and when are you braking?
3. what is your lat g vs long g plot, are you driving within the limits of the tires?
4. a plot of lat gs vs steering input can tell you whether your understeer is mechanical or driver induced
5. how good was your start? There are often TENTHS in what seems minute differences in starting techniques




etc..


people like to say things like "I yeah I trail brake" or "yeah I never lift", and then the data comes in and minds are blown

[AustinTX]

People can get lost in data. The best thing for one is not the best for another. Codrive with a fast guy and attempt to emulate that

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by AustinTX

People can get lost in data. The best thing for one is not the best for another. Codrive with a fast guy and attempt to emulate that

yes but what is "fast"


I went from being 5s behind my class leader at the first event of the year to beating him and the season isn't over yet.


Ive had the logger in his car and other FRS drivers. I knew they were faster, and the data showed me exactly where and why they were faster, then I emulated THAT, and I got faster.. I didn't even need to hop in their car, the graphs told a much more comprehensive story.


the only way for you to get lost in the data is by trying to analyze too much of it in a short amount of time (or simply lacking the skills to analyze it).

SCIENCE trumps all


EMBRACE it


LOVE it

[Biggins]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

um.. not sure how to say this without insulting your intelligence... the process of learning and changing your paradigms is long and tedious and requires a certain level of determination and willingness

it's not a "what if", it's an analysis of what you think was your best driving and a quantification and classification of shortcomings. EI, you tell yourself that what you thought was true is actually wrong, so the next time you're out there you'll learn to push your senses further.

I can guarantee that if you take datalogging seriously you'll significantly increase the rate at which you aquire new skills

but only if you're willing to admit personal defeat at the end of every single event even if you do well.

No worries, maybe I'm old school. I change tire pressures if it's raining or cold, and I look at my times. That's about the extent of the changes I make. I turned the Konis down at one event. I'm out there to have fun.

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Really? I can see at least a handful of places where he was 3ft or more off the the cone he was trying to apex and more than a few places where he entered too fast and pushed off the line he was trying to make. It may or may not add up to .9sec, hard to tell from video since you have no idea on the limits of the car, but each of those times he gets off the line is adding up.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't by any means call the run sloppy or bad and I am definitely not saying that I could do better, but saying that there is no way to take a second off that run is just plain false.

There's always time to be found, but to be that close to Chris, he's doing okay.

[AustinTX]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

yes but what is "fast"


I went from being 5s behind my class leader at the first event of the year to beating him and the season isn't over yet.

My opinion, if you have to ask what fast is, you don't know yet. I have issues when internet heroes start pushing their opinions of a single part of a thing upon others, but they are not necessarily all that knowledgeable about the thing yet. Not saying you fit in this description, but in this case let your driving do the talking first. See you at nats soon?