Dealership Accuses Variable Valve Timing (VVT) Ajustment

[Frost]

Originally Posted by shiro

Currently, I have a case open with corporate on this issue. If we are talking about a case in other terms then I meant I have enough data that I can compile and bring to Toyota to help leverage my engine issues. Overall, if corporate is already willing to help "compensate" some of the cost I think that is a good start and shows good faith on them. However, it took time to get to this point.

To play devil's advocate, I must caution that anything, if anything is even done, is purely on goodwill to you Shiro - nothing can be proven conclusively that they indeed dropped the ball and technically it is in their power to simply say no and go away.

However, if you have been as nice to them and professional as you have indicated, if I were on the other side of the desk, I would review costs associated and offer some sort of fix or replacement but caution strongly that modifications have chain effect impacts on other equipment that may not have been directly modified and that is purely a one-of and goodwill.

Keep in mind guys, the dealers are not direct employees of Toyota. They are merely reps and they get comp'ed for the warranty work they do by Toyota. I don't know for a fact but I would bet that Toyota has a $$$ amount they allocate for warranty repair (eg: it should only take 1 hour to change a bad clutch thus only $xxx is allotted - anything more and you are eating the difference). That is why most reps don't like warranty work especially if they didn't even sell the car. I am not excusing them for the attitude but that's the pain they feel. I hear the same complaining every year when I meet with all our Canadian service dealers and they will always say the same thing year after year.

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

The truth is almost every tuner changes timing. And they almost always advance timing as much as they can because it makes more power.

You're talking about ignition timing. Advancing valve timing as much as possible isn't something tuners usually do.
@shiro: Based on your video, that noise sounds like a faulty AVCS sprocket or a loose timing chain to me. It's too fast to be a bottom end knock.

[FirestormFRS]

Good luck @shiro getting that fixed under warranty.

On a side note is there a chance that you may have dropped something into the intake while removing the turbo? A small nut or clip or anything will destroy an engine in just a few seconds if it makes it into the intake. I've seen engines come back that had damage to every cylinder from a single 10mm nut bouncing around inside the combustion chambers.

[shiro]

Originally Posted by Frost

To play devil's advocate, I must caution that anything, if anything is even done, is purely on goodwill to you Shiro - nothing can be proven conclusively that they indeed dropped the ball and technically it is in their power to simply say no and go away.

However, if you have been as nice to them and professional as you have indicated, if I were on the other side of the desk, I would review costs associated and offer some sort of fix or replacement but caution strongly that modifications have chain effect impacts on other equipment that may not have been directly modified and that is purely a one-of and goodwill.

Keep in mind guys, the dealers are not direct employees of Toyota. They are merely reps and they get comp'ed for the warranty work they do by Toyota. I don't know for a fact but I would bet that Toyota has a $$$ amount they allocate for warranty repair (eg: it should only take 1 hour to change a bad clutch thus only $xxx is allotted - anything more and you are eating the difference). That is why most reps don't like warranty work especially if they didn't even sell the car. I am not excusing them for the attitude but that's the pain they feel. I hear the same complaining every year when I meet with all our Canadian service dealers and they will always say the same thing year after year.

Thanks again for your post. You are absolutely correct. Currently, if Toyota wants to help me it will be out of goodwill. To my understand most dealerships are paid a set amount of hours for a specific job. It makes it fair across the board to all dealerships and makes it so dealerships aren't overcharging the corporation, right? That's how my firm works at least. So I can see why the dealership I am working with is not happy with this whole situation and will want me to pay for the hours to tear down and diagnosis the engine. Honestly, I can do the same thing for free but I'm not certified and this would destroy all chances of Toyota aiding, if they decided to.

I contacted my dealership today on an update since the regional manager seen my car yesterday. The service manager basically told me that in order to press forward they will need to tear the engine down on my dime. Depending on what they find there is a very small possibility that Toyota would help cover any costs. My only concern is that the service manager continued to point out I made extensive modifications to the engine but he would not specify any of them except the timing chain. His conversation felt more like I was being talked down on kind of like being punished and saying, "you know what you did!" LOL, that exactly what he said too… Oh well, the integrity of that dealership has been lost. If I decide to pay a dealership to tear the engine down it will not be that one.

Still corporate and I continue to play phone-tag for the last couple of days. It would be nice to talk to the regional manager directly… More to come later

Originally Posted by andrew20195

You're talking about ignition timing. Advancing valve timing as much as possible isn't something tuners usually do. @shiro: Based on your video, that noise sounds like a faulty AVCS sprocket or a loose timing chain to me. It's too fast to be a bottom end knock.

Thanks for the analysis! I've been really wanting to know what other's have though about that noise. Also, thanks for the clarification too on the ignition timing and valve timing!

Originally Posted by FirestormFRS

Good luck @shiro getting that fixed under warranty.

On a side note is there a chance that you may have dropped something into the intake while removing the turbo? A small nut or clip or anything will destroy an engine in just a few seconds if it makes it into the intake. I've seen engines come back that had damage to every cylinder from a single 10mm nut bouncing around inside the combustion chambers.

That is possible but highly unlikely in my situation. When I installed the turbo it was in a clean facility with accountability on all tools and parts. Also, all intlets and outlets on the engine were sealed during exposure. I'm too use to the old Air Forces's "Attention to Detail." lol Hopefully I didn't jinx myself...

[pche]

Didn't read through all 3 pages. I'm just gonna chime in.
1. Any kind of FI on your engine would likely get your warranty claim denied. It doesn't "void" it, in fact nothing "voids" your warranty. Warranty just doesn't cover damage caused by aftermarket components.

2. It's impossible to install the front cover upside down. The front cover covers the cam sprockets which control the VVT.

3. Tuners absolutely change ignition timing to make power. Not so much the Variable Vale Timing. Mechanics can observe the advancement percentange from each cam sensor and compare to another vehicle operating under the same condition to determine if the VVT is altered. Which is very unlikely since your engine does not run. An easy way to tell if an ECM had been modified is by checking the CID. If the ECM is confirmed altered, they can and often do deny any engine repair.

4. Sounds like the service manager is just trying to tell you that they won't be fixing it under warranty. He doesn't necessarily know exactly what had happened, all he knows is that the car was once turboed and tuned. I'm very surprised that Toyota had you remove the mods for diagnostic.

IMHO, your engine is not covered. You run the risk of damaging your engine when you modify it, it's not fair to have someone else pay for your consequences. Now bite the bullet and build one that can take the turbo!

[shiro]

Originally Posted by pche

Didn't read through all 3 pages. I'm just gonna chime in.
1. Any kind of FI on your engine would likely get your warranty claim denied. It doesn't "void" it, in fact nothing "voids" your warranty. Warranty just doesn't cover damage caused by aftermarket components.

2. It's impossible to install the front cover upside down. The front cover covers the cam sprockets which control the VVT.

3. Tuners absolutely change ignition timing to make power. Not so much the Variable Vale Timing. Mechanics can observe the advancement percentange from each cam sensor and compare to another vehicle operating under the same condition to determine if the VVT is altered. Which is very unlikely since your engine does not run. An easy way to tell if an ECM had been modified is by checking the CID. If the ECM is confirmed altered, they can and often do deny any engine repair.

4. Sounds like the service manager is just trying to tell you that they won't be fixing it under warranty. He doesn't necessarily know exactly what had happened, all he knows is that the car was once turboed and tuned. I'm very surprised that Toyota had you remove the mods for diagnostic.

IMHO, your engine is not covered. You run the risk of damaging your engine when you modify it, it's not fair to have someone else pay for your consequences. Now bite the bullet and build one that can take the turbo!

This situation has had its ups and downs but it's been...interesting. As the end result, I am pretty excited to build an engine either way. I love the design of this car, I just wish we (as with everyone else) didn't have all the first year issues. Also, this post has helped me--and hopefully other forum members--understand this engine better and how we modify the complex parts of its design.