All-new 2023 Nissan Z makes world debut!

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

450hp Mustang GT starts around $36k. 330hp for $38k with a similar weight doesn’t sound great, especially as equipped if it a true base.

Except it isn't similar weight. I also don't think they will go with a 330HP version at all, and if they do it would need to be far cheaper than that.

If we instead consider the regular 400HP Z vs the Mustang GT, raw HP numbers alone don't tell the whole story and we need to factor in power to weight (ptw).

2022 Mustang GT: 450HP/3,972lbs
Ptw: 0.113 HP/lb

2022 Nissan Z: 400HP/3,485lbs
Ptw: 0.115 HP/lb

A base 400HP 6MT Z at least will actually have a slightly better ptw ratio than the Mustang GT. A 330HP Z will be far below the GT's ptw however, so yeah, they had better not do that and price it at GT money!

[Stonehorsw]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Except it isn't similar weight. I also don't think they will go with a 330HP version at all, and if they do it would need to be far cheaper than that.

If we instead consider the regular 400HP Z vs the Mustang GT, raw HP numbers alone don't tell the whole story and we need to factor in power to weight (ptw).

2022 Mustang GT: 450HP/3,972lbs
Ptw: 0.113 HP/lb

2022 Nissan Z: 400HP/3,485lbs
Ptw: 0.115 HP/lb

A base 400HP 6MT Z at least will actually have a slightly better ptw ratio than the Mustang GT. A 330HP Z will be far below the GT's ptw however, so yeah, they had better not do that and price it at GT money!

Less weight = less material. Should not be more expensive as there is the weight difference is not due to better materials, but because it is a old fat 2 seater.

It is an old platform, with a TT V6.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Except it isn't similar weight. I also don't think they will go with a 330HP version at all, and if they do it would need to be far cheaper than that.

If we instead consider the regular 400HP Z vs the Mustang GT, raw HP numbers alone don't tell the whole story and we need to factor in power to weight (ptw).

2022 Mustang GT: 450HP/3,972lbs
Ptw: 0.113 HP/lb

2022 Nissan Z: 400HP/3,485lbs
Ptw: 0.115 HP/lb

A base 400HP 6MT Z at least will actually have a slightly better ptw ratio than the Mustang GT. A 330HP Z will be far below the GT's ptw however, so yeah, they had better not do that and price it at GT money!

I think a base GT or SS with a manual is closer to 3700. I think they will be competitive at $36-40k with the 400hp setup, depending on the features.

[mazeroni]

Originally Posted by Stonehorsw

Should not be more expensive

I assume you mean the 400Z should be cheaper. In a vacuum where all things are equal, that should be true. But Ford and Chevy are in very different situations than Nissan.

Let's assume for a moment that at $35K the Mustang GT and Camaro SS are losing $10K per car - they cost $45K to build, market, warranty, and sell.

But Ford and Chevy sell Escalades and F-150 Platinums, so the bean counters just look the other way - there is a reason GM is rumored to have spent $3 billion making the C8 Corvette and loses $20K on the base trim yet still profits billions in cash each year.

Let's also assume that the 400Z costs $40K to build, market, warranty, and sell. So it costs $5K less to build than the GT or SS, and is breakeven at its sale price of $40K.

So in this situation, the 400Z, Supra, and other sports cars all look bad because they can't compete or don't want to compete with Ford and Chevy who might choose to eat losses so they remain competitive in the segment.

Granted, it could be something else entirely, but this is just an example of what could be going and why we can't assume Nissan is just being dense... although the company is only now working to get out of the hole it dug itself into.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Where does it say they’ll all have 400hp?

In the press release that was posted 5 months ago.

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/th...allpapers.418/

[Stonehorsw]

[QUOTE=mazeroni;3501286]I assume you mean the 400Z should be cheaper. In a vacuum where all things are equal, that should be true. But Ford and Chevy are in very different situations than Nissan.

Let's assume for a moment that at $35K the Mustang GT and Camaro SS are losing $10K per car - they cost $45K to build, market, warranty, and sell.

But Ford and Chevy sell Escalades and F-150 Platinums, so the bean counters just look the other way - there is a reason GM is rumored to have spent $3 billion making the C8 Corvette and loses $20K on the base trim yet still profits billions in cash each year.

Let's also assume that the 400Z costs $40K to build, market, warranty, and sell. So it costs $5K less to build than the GT or SS, and is breakeven at its sale price of $40K.

So in this situation, the 400Z, Supra, and other sports cars all look bad because they can't compete or don't want to compete with Ford and Chevy who might choose to eat losses so they remain competitive in the segment.

Granted, it could be something else entirely, but this is just an example of what could be going and why we can't assume Nissan is just being dense... although the company is only now working to get out of the hole it dug itself into.[/QUOTE

I get your point, I was more j/k than anything else, as I do not have their business cases.

Anyways, it will be a good GT car, but the competition with the next gen Mustang (650???) will be hard outside of the JDM crowd

[vh_supra26]

[Tcoat]

[QUOTE=Stonehorsw;3501321]

Originally Posted by mazeroni

I assume you mean the 400Z should be cheaper. In a vacuum where all things are equal, that should be true. But Ford and Chevy are in very different situations than Nissan.

Let's assume for a moment that at $35K the Mustang GT and Camaro SS are losing $10K per car - they cost $45K to build, market, warranty, and sell.

But Ford and Chevy sell Escalades and F-150 Platinums, so the bean counters just look the other way - there is a reason GM is rumored to have spent $3 billion making the C8 Corvette and loses $20K on the base trim yet still profits billions in cash each year.

Let's also assume that the 400Z costs $40K to build, market, warranty, and sell. So it costs $5K less to build than the GT or SS, and is breakeven at its sale price of $40K.

So in this situation, the 400Z, Supra, and other sports cars all look bad because they can't compete or don't want to compete with Ford and Chevy who might choose to eat losses so they remain competitive in the segment.

Granted, it could be something else entirely, but this is just an example of what could be going and why we can't assume Nissan is just being dense... although the company is only now working to get out of the hole it dug itself into.[/QUOTE

I get your point, I was more j/k than anything else, as I do not have their business cases.

Anyways, it will be a good GT car, but the competition with the next gen Mustang (650???) will be hard outside of the JDM crowd

The big thing is that (for the Mustang for example) they sell tens of thousands of base models for a decent profit that allow them to cut the price of the performance versions. Everybody immediately thinks of the top level versions when they are actually only about 5% of what is sold.

Nisson will not have the vast quantities of base models to off set the cost of the performance ones.

[Stonehorsw]

[QUOTE=Tcoat;3501443]

Originally Posted by Stonehorsw

The big thing is that (for the Mustang for example) they sell tens of thousands of base models for a decent profit that allow them to cut the price of the performance versions. Everybody immediately thinks of the top level versions when they are actually only about 5% of what is sold.

Nisson will not have the vast quantities of base models to off set the cost of the performance ones.

Will Nissan launch a performance variant for the Z?

Yes, Mustang is saved by the EcoBoost and by the S197 platform, which is well paid off. S550 followed with minimal changes, and I thibk S650 will do the same (don’t fix what is not broken)

Let’s wait and see actual prices, as mentioned, business case is not available. Not sure their strategy, sometimes too much volume is an issue too, and may be contained via higher price, or even to make the product more desirable (I see much people bashing Mustang because it is an attainable American Muscle Car, not because the product itself)

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Red-86

2022 Mustang GT: 450HP/3,972lbs
Ptw: 0.113 HP/lb

2022 Nissan Z: 400HP/3,485lbs
Ptw: 0.115 HP/lb

Even though I currently don't own a BRZ, these weight figures makes my previous ownership of the platform completely justified, at least for me...

christ, 3900+lbs? My Honda Odyssey weighs 4200lbs! Even my Volvo V60 Cross Country!

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Stonehorsw

Less weight = less material. Should not be more expensive

It's typically the opposite with sports cars, you often have to pay MORE for LESS, because light-weighting (whilst retaining performance) costs money thanks to the need for exotic materials and extra engineering. I'm not claiming the Z is lighter than a Mustang because of this, of course. The Z is still a physically smaller car which is why it is still lighter than the Mustang despite the older platform under the Z.

the weight difference is not due to better materials, but because it is a old fat 2 seater.

It is an old platform, with a TT V6.

Yeah, we've heard it before 1,000 times. We KNOW it is an older platform being reused (with a few improvements). That is just the way these cars get their business case up today. Everyone is doing it, the new twins reuse their prior platform, as will the S650 Mustang, and the Z of course.

If you want new affordable sports cars to be made, this is how you get them. Developing entirely new platforms from scratch is mega expensive, especially for low volume budget sports cars. Toyota wasn't game to do it on their own for either the 86 or the Supra, hence the partnerships with Subaru and BMW. Nissan is still going it alone and so minimising costs and risks is paramount for them. So the new Z is a compromise car, as befits its price segment. You want an 400HP+ sports car that is lightweight? Go grab yourself a 718 GTS 4.0 - just be ready to open your wallet a lot further.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I think a base GT or SS with a manual is closer to 3700.

I went off a local site that reviews Aus spec cars. They list the 2022 as 1,802kg (3,972.7lbs):
https://www.carexpert.com.au/ford/mu...50-v8-39c5158d

Car and Driver says 3,850lbs for a 2019 6MT Bullitt:
https://hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/fi...1542127186.pdf

The truth may lie somewhere between and vary slightly depending on exact spec. In any case it's quite a bit more than even the heaviest predictions for the Z.

[Stonehorsw]

Originally Posted by Red-86

It's typically the opposite with sports cars, you often have to pay MORE for LESS, because light-weighting (whilst retaining performance) costs money thanks to the need for exotic materials and extra engineering. I'm not claiming the Z is lighter than a Mustang because of this, of course. The Z is still a physically smaller car which is why it is still lighter than the Mustang despite the older platform under the Z.



Yeah, we've heard it before 1,000 times. We KNOW it is an older platform being reused (with a few improvements). That is just the way these cars get their business case up today. Everyone is doing it, the new twins reuse their prior platform, as will the S650 Mustang, and the Z of course.

If you want new affordable sports cars to be made, this is how you get them. Developing entirely new platforms from scratch is mega expensive, especially for low volume budget sports cars. Toyota wasn't game to do it on their own for either the 86 or the Supra, hence the partnerships with Subaru and BMW. Nissan is still going it alone and so minimising costs and risks is paramount for them. So the new Z is a compromise car, as befits its price segment. You want an 400HP+ sports car that is lightweight? Go grab yourself a 718 GTS 4.0 - just be ready to open your wallet a lot further.

Don’t need to defend Nissan on that, I mentioned that I don’t have the business case nor I do know their strategy. If you see, I have a BRZ, so you may think that I do not have a deep pocket, and you would be right

I just jumped in because everyone seems to be defending Nissan price here as we defend the gen2 on the why not keeping gen1 tread. If the price is higher than Mustang, volumes may be affected, and it may just be fine.

And Mustang S197 is an older platform than 370z. I don’t have any problem with reusing a good GT platform, as long as the improvements addresses some of the weaknesses.

I will go back to the wait and see

Last time was when I said about that the weight would be higher than anyone was saying and people here came defending Nissan, in the end, it is as heavy as a mentioned.

I hope to be wrong here and the 400z comes with a competitive price.

[Swift]

Nissan exec: Hey Todd, what is that sweet car you are driving to work?


Todd: It's a Dodge Challenger


Nissan Exec: How many mid cycle refreshs has that thing had, just gave me an idea!