follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting

Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-26-2021, 12:40 PM   #71
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 10,838
Thanks: 17,338
Thanked 15,879 Times in 7,142 Posts
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
Over the course of a run, what percentage of time are you at WOT above 5k vs below 5k rpm?
Couldn't tell you what percentage, I don't have RPM logs. What does it matter though? There are situations where you may have to leave the car in a higher gear because you can not shift in the sector without loosing time, but a lower gear would put you into the limiter. Not that uncommon to drop down to about 4k rpm on any of the tracks I have been to.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
why? (02-26-2021)
Old 02-26-2021, 12:47 PM   #72
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 2,131
Thanks: 336
Thanked 1,187 Times in 781 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayRay88 View Post
If Aluminum and Metal Intake components were so inferior, they wouldn't be widely used in automotive and motorsports. You know who and or why they use plastic intakes? Low cost and entry level components. You can injection/blow mold a few thousand intakes for the fraction of a cost of a cast or welded manifold.
Probably volume and rate of sales making AI way cheaper unless they know they will sell a certain number of units to make the cost of molding worth it.
A quick google search In fact, this person broke it down pretty well and backs up my hypothesis. https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/vie...22743&start=15

This is probably why aftermarket is usually metal, and oem vehicle manufacturers usually use plastic. Itís the cheapest option for both parties given the circumstances. Aftermarket isnít using metal because itís inherently better itís cheaper for them.

Again heat was the most minuscule of the negative points. But the only one people are fixated on. When given a choice all things equal Iíd choose plastic. In the end sure itís probably negligible and no meaningful difference.

If two products are 100% equal, same cost, weight, performance etc... the only 1 difference was one was 1f hotter. It is still technically worse and can be listed as a negative even if itís ultimately negligible.
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2021, 12:53 PM   #73
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 2,131
Thanks: 336
Thanked 1,187 Times in 781 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
Couldn't tell you what percentage, I don't have RPM logs. What does it matter though? There are situations where you may have to leave the car in a higher gear because you can not shift in the sector without loosing time, but a lower gear would put you into the limiter. Not that uncommon to drop down to about 4k rpm on any of the tracks I have been to.
It matters because that is the entire point. To calculate and decide which option is better. You are probably at or above 5k rpm while WOT 95% of the time. Not sure whatís complicated about that. One option makes more power above 5500 rpm (where you spend the vast majority of your time while WOT) vs one option making more power below 5500rpm.

To overly simplify and dumb it down to the simplest example. If you are at or above 5500 rpm while WOT 51% or more of the time vs being below 5500rpm at WOT then the 2nd option is better. If you are WOT below 5500rpm 51% or more (which makes zero sense) then option 1 is better.
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2021, 12:57 PM   #74
prandelia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Drives: 2015 FRS
Location: KY
Posts: 169
Thanks: 1
Thanked 190 Times in 77 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
I'm not saying it is not worth it, but if someone goes into that route then he has to do it all the way. Sure someone could rev up to 8k with stock (weak) valve springs as much as he likes or needed for some race track, but then he'll just have a ticking bomb.
I would argue otherwise. The whole point is to avoid having to open this engine up because it's a nightmare to pull and work on, compared to say a K24 or something. Nothing is easy to do on it. So you might as well try everything you can within reason before you open it up. That's my plan atleast, as it also requires the least amount of downtime.

Every race car engine is a ticking time bomb. I remember 2 years ago people telling me how shitty the FA20 was, and it will blow up, blah blah. Yes, it will, but when you do the right things, like run proper oil viscosity and pressures, it certainly will go alot farther.

I'll see how it likes going to 8K occasionally, and when it does let go, which it eventually will, I'll replace it with something else, or have a mildly built setup even more prepared for 8K. Will that be next year or 2 years from now, only time will tell.
__________________
'15 FRS - GLTC spec
YouTube channel race vids: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClU...phsppnA/videos

prandelia is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to prandelia For This Useful Post:
why? (02-26-2021)
Old 02-26-2021, 01:00 PM   #75
why?
Only happy when it rains.
 
why?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Drives: series.blue
Location: Harnett county NC
Posts: 1,995
Thanks: 5,698
Thanked 1,263 Times in 749 Posts
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prandelia View Post
My car is already tuned, so it took maybe 2 hours for tweaking of my current tune. It's just a simple flat hourly fee, pretty cheap actually.
Doesn't more tuning always help?

That torque table could easily make it all worth it.
why? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2021, 01:02 PM   #76
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 10,838
Thanks: 17,338
Thanked 15,879 Times in 7,142 Posts
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
It matters because that is the entire point. To calculate and decide which option is better. You are probably at or above 5k rpm while WOT 95% of the time. Not sure what’s complicated about that. One option makes more power above 5500 rpm (where you spend the vast majority of your time while WOT) vs one option making more power below 5500rpm.

To overly simplify and dumb it down to the simplest example. If you are at or above 5500 rpm while WOT 51% or more of the time vs being below 5500rpm at WOT then the 2nd option is better. If you are WOT below 5500rpm 51% or more (which makes zero sense) then option 1 is better.
Why does it have to be WOT? I can't be at 90% throttle at 5800RPM? Stop looking at just HP and look at where the torque is. There is not enough of a difference there to change shifting habits. Track layout and gear spacing are clearly not factors to you.

You clearly have little to no track experience. If I am wrong, please post your data of never driving below 5k RPM under throttle on anything but an oval or drag strip.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.

Last edited by NoHaveMSG; 02-26-2021 at 01:13 PM.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to NoHaveMSG For This Useful Post:
why? (02-27-2021)
Old 02-26-2021, 01:21 PM   #77
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 2,131
Thanks: 336
Thanked 1,187 Times in 781 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
Why does it have to be WOT? I can't be at 90% throttle at 5800RPM? Stop looking at just HP and look at where the torque is. There is not enough of a difference there to change shifting habits.

You clearly have little to no track experience. If I am wrong, please post your data of never driving below 5k RPM under throttle on anything but an oval or drag strip.
You clearly aren’t comprehending and understanding this simple basic point. I see exactly what you’re saying and it’s irrelevant to what i am saying.

Because if not at WOT then why would 5hp or 5 ft lbs matter?
If not at WOT modulate throttle to make the power you want.


I specifically said WOT and not on throttle for a reason.

Of course you’ll be on throttle plenty of times below 5k but i highly doubt you are at WOT 51%+ of the time below 5500rpm but if you are then good for you...

I’ll try to dumb this down even further.

If option one makes 155ft lbs mid range but less torque/power 5500+
Option 2 makes 150ft lbs mid range but more torque/power top end 5500+

Under a non WOT scenario, say you would use option 1 at 35% throttle because you want say 90ft lbs in that scenario or option 2 you use 40% throttle to make the same power, You can modulate throttle % to dictate needed power. A 5hp or 5ft lbs max power difference is irrelevant unless at WOT.

Or you scenario 90% at 5800, if you made less power you couldn’t do 93% throttle to make same power? Once at 100% throttle you are at the limit and can’t get more. Below 100% you can modulate more or less throttle to get the power needed for the situation.

For racing applications with 7500rpm redline would you rather have 155ft lbs below 5,500rpm but only 145ft lbs above 5,500rpm, or 150ft lbs both below 5500 and above 5500 both.
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2021, 02:10 PM   #78
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 10,838
Thanks: 17,338
Thanked 15,879 Times in 7,142 Posts
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
JUN GT Intake Manifold - It's finally here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
You clearly arenít comprehending and understanding this simple basic point. I see exactly what youíre saying and itís irrelevant to what i am saying.
Lol we are not even talking about the same subject at this point.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2021, 02:24 PM   #79
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 2,131
Thanks: 336
Thanked 1,187 Times in 781 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
Lol we are not even talking about the same subject at this point.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed. Iím talking about the context of the original post i made that you quoted. And youíre talking about something entirely different.
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2021, 02:48 PM   #80
RayRay88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Drives: 2017 86 860 Special Edition
Location: Toronto
Posts: 559
Thanks: 198
Thanked 461 Times in 241 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
Probably volume and rate of sales making AI way cheaper unless they know they will sell a certain number of units to make the cost of molding worth it.
A quick google search In fact, this person broke it down pretty well and backs up my hypothesis. https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/vie...22743&start=15

This is probably why aftermarket is usually metal, and oem vehicle manufacturers usually use plastic. It’s the cheapest option for both parties given the circumstances. Aftermarket isn’t using metal because it’s inherently better it’s cheaper for them.

Again heat was the most minuscule of the negative points. But the only one people are fixated on. When given a choice all things equal I’d choose plastic. In the end sure it’s probably negligible and no meaningful difference.

If two products are 100% equal, same cost, weight, performance etc... the only 1 difference was one was 1f hotter. It is still technically worse and can be listed as a negative even if it’s ultimately negligible.
I think we're almost saying the same thing or one of us is misinterpreting something.

OEM's are doing production in the thousands so yes plastic injection molding will always be cheaper, but you'll also notice as your vehicle price point and performance increase aluminum and cast steel becomes more and more prominent. The site you linked was for small shops/hobby enthusiasts casting their own products for one offs. This wouldn't be feasible for any sort of production run.

I'm still not sold on plastics heat properties. I work with companies who use plastics and advanced materials exclusively in aerospace/automotive/defense/motorsport applications and none of them would pick a plastic application over metal unless cost was an issue. Even then they usually have to work with fillers and our materials suppliers to make sure it can handle whatever application they need it for.
RayRay88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2021, 04:15 PM   #81
rice_classic
Senior Member
 
rice_classic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: Nevermorange FRS
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,149
Thanks: 753
Thanked 4,185 Times in 1,797 Posts
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
I suspect that prandelia will be just fine. The problem with chassis dyno is that when you put in a different final drive and pull in the SAME gear, you will often see a lower power graph due to how they calculate power; but the car would be faster in a straight line in reality because he would be turning more RPM for given wheel speed in a given gear vs the 4.10 diff.

Good info on how gearing affects dyno numbers: http://www.bishopsperformance.com/dynoinfo.htm


The important thing that stands out to me is that this modification keeps him within the legal rule set and at the target WHP range, allows him to utilize another 500rpms if needed without the engine completely falling on its face and the 4.55 FD will literally help him everywhere on track, especially when using 8k rpm.

Without lumpier cams or bigger valves, the cylinder heads can only breathe so much and something like a larger throttle body or fancy intake manifold is only going have to have incremental gains on an NA application without addressing the cyl head.

A lot of sentiment here is that the juice isn't worth the squeeze, which is false, if you're racing and it's in the budget, it's not just worth the squeeze - it's imperative to remain competitive. What's being realized by many is that this modification and class of racing isn't within most of our budgets and therefore unjustifiable. Prandelia is not modifying a street car after all.
__________________
SCCA T4 - FRS
rice_classic is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rice_classic For This Useful Post:
why? (02-27-2021)
Old 02-26-2021, 04:29 PM   #82
rice_classic
Senior Member
 
rice_classic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: Nevermorange FRS
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,149
Thanks: 753
Thanked 4,185 Times in 1,797 Posts
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Also, I think things were put properly in perspective when he said the price of the manifold isn't unreasonable at all when you take into consideration the disposal of $1800 in tires every 6 sessions (hoosiers). I wouldn't be surprised if his annual tire budget is ~$5-10k

prandelia, I've enjoyed watching your races in GLTC and can see why burning some $$$$ to find that "little bit more". it looks like you only need a "little bit more".



Good luck in 2021.
__________________
SCCA T4 - FRS
rice_classic is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rice_classic For This Useful Post:
Capt Spaulding (03-01-2021), Pat (02-26-2021), why? (02-27-2021)
Old 02-26-2021, 04:40 PM   #83
86TOYO2k17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: 2017 toyota 86
Location: PNW
Posts: 2,131
Thanks: 336
Thanked 1,187 Times in 781 Posts
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
The 250 shifts the powerband up about 3-400rpm, and should make more power everywhere above 5500 rpm, and hold onto the power slightly longer. Even if short shifting at 7k you should never be under 5k rpm. So for racing scenarios the 250 is the best for NA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
That is not how the real world works. Maybe, maybe, if all your gearing was perfectly setup for a specific track that had no long section of corner combinations that would prevent you from shifting it could work. Or maybe if you are playing a video game and you have flappy paddles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prandelia View Post
My car only sees the track, so their marketing data regarding the lower frequency, and lower RPM vibrations don't have much meaning to me, as the vast majority my RPM's are 5000-7500.
86TOYO2k17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2021, 04:43 PM   #84
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 10,838
Thanks: 17,338
Thanked 15,879 Times in 7,142 Posts
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
Lol, not what I was getting at, but I am glad you found something to give you purpose today.

__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Changing 2013 Intake Manifold to Red 2018 Aluminum Intake CARB Legal? MJones_RB Southern California 7 11-09-2020 06:42 PM
2013 intake manifold vs 2017 Aluminium intake manifold Bobster Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 29 12-19-2016 10:40 AM
FBM Intake Manifold Fonzi Engine, Exhaust, Bolt-Ons 1 03-11-2016 07:36 PM
Intake Manifold Fonzi Engine, Exhaust, Bolt-Ons 0 03-03-2016 08:29 PM
Intake manifold viking Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 6 09-23-2014 11:08 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2023 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.