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Old 01-06-2016, 01:15 PM   #1
Gear_One_Performance
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RR-Racing Sport Performance and AP-Racing Essex Initial Comparison

we recently picked up a Hyper Blue BRZ. While we have the endurance car many of the street oriented parts we can’t test on a car that’s been gutted and cut up for racing. Also, it’s a good looking car.

The first thing we did was wheels, coilovers and a big brake kit. We had planned on testing out the RR-Racing sport performance kit before even purchasing the car but also had an Essex kit on hand so we decided to compared the two.


First up was the Essex kit, we had run this briefly on the race car before switching over to the RR-Racing setup but street driving and racing have their own unique requirements. The biggest thing we noticed from the get go was the noise. the Essex kits tend to be on the noisier side no matter what car they’re on or pad they use. While this isn’t a huge issue for a track oriented car it is really annoying when driving around in traffic. Other than that the brakes felt good, obviously there was a little bit more front bias as one would expect with a front only kit but that was to be expected.



After a few weeks on the Essex brakes we decided it was time to try out the Sport Performance front and rear kit from RR-Racing.

The first difference you notice is the price. You can buy the full front and rear RR kit for what the front Essex kit costs. While Essex uses their own 2 piece rotor design the RR kit works off a standard STI rotor. Ultimately this makes the kit cheaper to run and allows you to run practically any style of rotor you want.

This is mostly a bolt on operation with the one exception being cutting or drilling the rear dust shields. Most people trim the dust shields to size but we opted to remove them entirely by drilling out the spot welds.


All in all this is a very well put together, well balanced kit that works great for an aggressively driven street car that sees occasional track usage. The price point and parts availability are the best out there


The stopping power of this kit with the BP-20 pads is fantastic, they make practically no noise and the car feels incredibly well balanced under heavy braking. They also look great in the silver.

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Old 01-06-2016, 02:50 PM   #2
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Other than saying the RR Racing kit is cheaper, there's virtually no comparison done here.

"the Essex kits tend to be on the noisier side no matter what car they’re on or pad they use." - We've found the Essex kit to be perfectly quiet with street pads.

"obviously there was a little bit more front bias as one would expect with a front only kit" - Do you have any numbers and/or test data to indicate that the Essex kit has a front brake bias?

There's no comparison on the technical details, like brake bias (of both kits), rotor sizing, piston area, heat dissipation, or actual on-track performance. Is this really a comparison?


My suggestions for a more apples-to-apples comparison:

- Compare both kits on the BP20 compound
- Log brake pressure data
- Perform stopping tests measuring distance and number of stops to fade
- measure the piston surface area of all calipers (oem, AP, Wilwood)
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:52 PM   #3
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And that in light of stock brakes being more then adequate for street/daily driving and even for some light track use. And you get matching front and rear brakes when using stock. And you get them for free when buying car. And you can even use oem parts in them and keep warranty! And certainly stock brakes have stock brake bias .
BBKs (except for those buying them for bling/posing/"filling big wheels"/ego purpose) are for track use.
Haven't seen people complaining much about brake noise on trackdays. If BBKs are mostly for track use, where is serious comparison on brake performance on track? You claim that brake bias is off on Essex's - where data proving that? You claim that wearables are cheaper on RRR's .. but where is data on that? I've seen real-use data with wearables costs and how long they last only for Essex's kit. No data for RRR's. JRitt seeing different brake bias combinations for RRR's multiple kits chart and posts about shifting brake bias vs stock asked about piston sizing/disks effective radius in RRR's kits. IIRC it was left unanswered/ignored. But still, RRR's kits are "right", and Essex's is "wrong".

Sounds like bashing post/thread for competing products/vendors.

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Old 01-06-2016, 06:20 PM   #4
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This wasn’t meant to be a bashing of anyone. We simply wanted to make our opinion public and. The title was a bit of a misstep it should have said “initial comparison”. Bottom line, you’re right it’s not a great comparison. However we are here to help make a good base of knowledge for the community as you are. So with that, @CSG Mike what was your best set up with the essex kit (tires and all) and we will test both set ups as soon as we can get track time and post the data.

Full disclosure we did test both kits on Wilwood BP20’s
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Old 01-08-2016, 11:13 AM   #5
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No bashing here, I'm pretty happy about the start and look forward to the completion of the reviews. One suggestion as well can you test the front rr kit by itself and then with the rear kit after. Particularly since a lot of guys buy the front only at first and add the rears later.
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Old 01-08-2016, 11:31 AM   #6
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There is always some kind of tension between RR and Essex that I don't get.

When Essex asked about data in the RR thread, that was looking a bit aggressive. I guess that's why they never answered.

AP is the greatest brake manufacturer ever. They don't need to worry much in my opinion.

Both offer quality products. We should be happy about that.
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by MaximeT View Post
There is always some kind of tension between RR and Essex that I don't get.

When Essex asked about data in the RR thread, that was looking a bit aggressive. I guess that's why they never answered.

AP is the greatest brake manufacturer ever. They don't need to worry much in my opinion.

Both offer quality products. We should be happy about that.
Thanks for posting this.

As far as consumers go, there is a sort of fanyboi-ism that develops around good products (usually for good reason, but sometimes it goes too far). AP Racing makes good stuff so we often see passive-aggressiveness by AP fans towards alternate brake products in threads. It's both unnecessary and fairly obvious.

Really there is no reason for Essex to be publicly attempting to vet RR's Wilwood integration in RR's thread. If Essex wanted to know RR's specs, all they need to do is order a kit and measure/test if for themselves. Essex is responsible for their own market research and PR campaigns. RR not being baited was a wise decision. Also it's against the forum rules for vendors to comment on other vendors products. RR should continue to do as they've done. Openly developing their product for their market is working and so far buyers seem to like RR's offerings very much.

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Old 01-09-2016, 06:04 PM   #8
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I haven't read anything about the RR setup, but my Essex Sprint setup only makes noise with noisy pads when they get hot. Most of the time daily driving the car I never hear a single peep out of them.
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Old 01-14-2016, 12:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by DAEMANO View Post
Thanks for posting this.

As far as consumers go, there is a sort of fanyboi-ism that develops around good products (usually for good reason, but sometimes it goes too far). AP Racing makes good stuff so we often see passive-aggressiveness by AP fans towards alternate brake products in threads. It's both unnecessary and fairly obvious.

Really there is no reason for Essex to be publicly attempting to vet RR's Wilwood integration in RR's thread. If Essex wanted to know RR's specs, all they need to do is order a kit and measure/test if for themselves. Essex is responsible for their own market research and PR campaigns. RR not being baited was a wise decision. Also it's against the forum rules for vendors to comment on other vendors products. RR should continue to do as they've done. Openly developing their product for their market is working and so far buyers seem to like RR's offerings very much.
As a general rule, I stay out of other peoples' threads. Our kits were mentioned numerous times in the RR thread both by name and quite obviously as "other leading products." I purposely stayed out of it and didn’t comment, as I felt it was inappropriate.

The reason I asked for some actual data from RR in their thread is because I had a wholesale customer ask me about what their kits do to brake bias. Without actual data, I can't properly comment on that question, and I'm not about to just make something up. Unless there is something to hide, I'm not really sure why it is a big deal to post the actual product specifications. I tried to gather the info from their website, but they have 42 different kit combinations for the BRZ. It was a bit confusing, I couldn't find the numbers I needed, and figured the path of least resistance was to just ask. I’m not sure what exactly was aggressive about the question or how it was asked.

To this point I still haven't seen any concrete data and actual numbers on how their kits impact front to rear brake bias. What I have seen are a number of comments assuring customers that the bias is good, works well, etc. The relational bias chart they posted helps when comparing kits within their product line, but still doesn’t explain what is going on with the car as a whole. I'd simply like to run the numbers and see what is actually happening on the car, so I can speak intelligently about it with customers.

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Old 01-14-2016, 12:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by JRitt View Post
As a general rule, I stay out of other peoples' threads. Our kits were mentioned numerous times in the RR thread both by name and quite obviously as "other leading products." I purposely stayed out of it and didn’t comment, as I felt it was inappropriate.

The reason I asked for some actual data from RR in their thread is because I had a wholesale customer ask me about what their kits do to brake bias. Without actual data, I can't properly comment on that question, and I'm not about to just make something up. Unless there is something to hide, I'm not really sure why it is a big deal to post the actual product specifications. I tried to gather the info from their website, but they have 42 different kit combinations for the BRZ. It was a bit confusing, I couldn't find the numbers I needed, and figured the path of least resistance was to just ask. I’m not sure what exactly was aggressive about the question or how it was asked.

To this point I still haven't seen any concrete data and actual numbers on how their kits impact front to rear brake bias. What I have seen are a number of comments assuring customers that the bias is good, works well, etc. The relational bias chart they posted helps when comparing kits within their product line, but still doesn’t explain what is going on with the car as a whole. I'd simply like to run the numbers and see what is actually happening on the car, so I can speak intelligently about it with customers.


This.

And this is why I will continue to sell and support specialists at what they do...when i want a brake kit I buy brakes from a brake company...when I buy valvetrain I buy valvetrain from a valvetrain company...when i want wheels i buy wheels from an actual wheel manufacturer, etc, etc....

dealing with the specialist gets you right to the point...it is what they do...it isn't what they want to slap their name on and try to sell today.

this is coming from 15 years of direct market experience..i have seen quite a lot come and go.
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Old 01-14-2016, 12:47 PM   #11
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With regard to noise...Pads sometimes chatter a bit on the J Hook slots. We even see that on our brake dyno and burnishing machine. We therefore offer our Sprint Kit with the no-cost option of plain-faced discs, which eliminates that noise.

As for a 'comparison' thread, I agree that there's not a whole lot of viable comparo data here yet. That's okay though, and I do look forward to seeing some hard numbers. I would expect to see some differences, because our Essex Competition Kits and the RR Racing kits are very different products. Our kits have a singular objective, to go faster for longer. They are specifically designed to be extraordinarily lightweight, durable, and fade-resistant for optimal track performance. They address the FT86's brake deficiencies in the most simplistic manner, and provide the greatest improvements in the area where they are needed most (the front of the car). All other considerations are secondary. They aren't the prettiest, and definitely not the cheapest, but they are brutally effective.

Back to the bias comment from the OP...It is important to note that our kits bolt on without any other modifications and are intentionally designed to have minimal impact on the factory brake bias. As such, they integrate seamlessly, and have proven to be a winning solution in sprint racing, endurance racing, rallying, hill climb, time trial, HPDE, and autoX all over the world...all while running the OEM rear brakes.

*Update 4/19/16*
We finally had the chance to run the calculations for the front RR Racing/Wilwood BBK's. The figures below are the % of front brake with the rear OEM brakes left alone. Our Essex Sprint Kit actually has less front brake than stock, shifting a little bias rearward (the exact opposite of what was claimed in this post). Our Endurance Kit has a little more front bias than stock, but still less than all of the RR Racing kits. The RR Sport Performance Kit would probably be a bit too front biased for most of our customers. Heat would be increased in the front brakes, and the fronts would likely lock up while the rears were still rolling.

We haven't had a chance to do the calculations on their rear kits yet, but hopefully soon. As you can see though, any talk of our Essex/AP kits being more front biased are untrue. The opposite is in fact true. Thanks.

% of front brake:

Stock 67.1
Essex Sprint 66.3
Essex Endurance 68.5
RR Sport Performance 72.9
RR Stage 1 69.4
RR Stage 2 69.4
RR Stage 3 69.6
RR Stage 4 69.6

If you go back through our threads, you'll see that we looked closely at creating a rear competition brake kit for this car about three years ago. We determined that the value of such a kit was minimal for our typical customer given the capability of the OEM rear brakes. We'd much rather see our customers sink their money into the front, where the demands are greatest (most people tracking these cars will go through 3 sets of front pads and discs before needing replacements for the rear).

All of that said, we don't inherently have anything against rear brake kits. We sell competition rear brake kits for other platforms such as the Corvette, various M3's, etc...even using the same CP8350 caliper body (see pic below). Some platforms benefit from them far more than others. The FT86 just isn't one of them.



We also sell the AP Racing Factory rear BBK's for the FT86. If you want to look cool, nothing beats a huge four-wheel brake kit. You won't get any argument from us there. There's certainly nothing poseur about these kits either. They are serious hardware. For some customers they are the ultimate solution. For serious track enthusiasts however, we tend to steer them away from those kits. They just don't offer as much bang-for-the-buck.

Last edited by JRitt; 04-19-2016 at 08:44 AM. Reason: added pic
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:10 PM   #12
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As a general rule, I stay out of other peoples' threads. Our kits were mentioned numerous times in the RR thread both by name and quite obviously as "other leading products." I purposely stayed out of it and didn’t comment, as I felt it was inappropriate.
I'm going to start this reply by saying I like your (Essex's) AP kits. They're well executed with strong R&D. They seem to work and when buyers have problems, either yourself or another person from Essex are responsive. Your passion about the market importantly drives the market forward.

With that being said, I don't think I saw anyone from RR mention Essex's AP configurations specifically. If another member did then I think it's appropriate to retort about your product to the person who mentioned it.

IMO RR referring to "other leading products" was the correct and professional way of talking about where their product fits into the BBK market as a whole. Brembo, Stoptech, Alcon, Endless, other Wilwood configurations, heck even Stillen's AP configurations all come to my mind as "other leading products". Essex does not have a monopoly on good BBKs for this platform.

Quote:
The reason I asked for some actual data from RR in their thread is because I had a wholesale customer ask me about what their kits do to brake bias. Without actual data, I can't properly comment on that question, and I'm not about to just make something up.
It's reasonable for customers or distributors to expect data from RR and request it. It's not reasonable to do this...

Quote:
Unless there is something to hide,
Strawman, aggressive, borderline unprofessional. There could be many other reasons why RR releases product information, R&D results, etc on this board and/or on their website the way they have.

Quote:
I tried to gather the info from their website, but they have 42 different kit combinations for the BRZ. It was a bit confusing, I couldn't find the numbers I needed, and figured the path of least resistance was to just ask. I’m not sure what exactly was aggressive about the question or how it was asked.
This was not aggressive but passive-aggressive. If you intended on buying or distributing any of their products my guess is that RR would appreciate feedback on their marketing materials. As far as I've seen, in their threads RR has engaged each customer's questions actively. However, you are a competitor pointing out deficiencies or asking for more data in a public forum. IMO it was wise for RR to not engage that as it can devolve quickly. There is a good reason for the vendor rules on this board.

Quote:
I'd simply like to run the numbers and see what is actually happening on the car, so I can speak intelligently about it with customers.
As I've mentioned, RR seems to be actively interacting directly with their potential customers and distributors. I have little doubt that if a customer asking for the same info directly from RR they would provide it directly. I also have little doubt that if a distributor wanted the same information they would also be provided it directly. Is Essex either a customer or distributor of RR products? Or are you asking for info from RR so that you can speak intelligently about it with your potential ccustomers? It doesn't seem to serve RR much to engage with competitors in a public forum. As a matter of observation, when that happens things can go south really fast, and for what purpose? Is the competitor going to espouse or advocate for anyone but themselves? Not often.

These are solely my observations.

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Old 01-14-2016, 01:14 PM   #13
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JRitt: those that seen aggressiveness probably seen it in fact that you posted in other vendor thread. Imho that was perfectly valid question with no real agressiveness. Actually i find thread like this of "our kit is better then that kit" without any data backing it being way more agressive. But i guess pointing that out lines me up 'in your fanboy camp' just like your post was lined up as 'agressive', even while i'm still using stock brakes and haven't bought any BBK yet .
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:34 PM   #14
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words word words
What?

He asked a question..I don't care if he is a customer, distributor or the Prince of Monaco....either an answer is known or not.

I have no idea what thread you guys are even referring to but I do know if you want to promote and market a product you better be ready to answer any and all questions regardless of where they come from.
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