Same WHP but more Torque? How?

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by jeepmor

Easy there, these are street cars. It's not prudent to shift at the limit every time we go get some groceries.

correct, but also not at all what we are discussing if you took what was said in context.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by jeepmor

I wouldn't tweak the tune just yet, but if you can collect data for your tuner, he should be able to review it with you. I think you're fine, blowing up engines is bad for business.

Blowing up engine is bad for business, but OP Is also making almost double the WTQ as stock, blowing an engine isn't always about a bad tune (knock, detonation, running lean etc...) If I was pushing 500whp on 25psi+ I wouldn't blame the tune or tuner for an engine failure.

You decide what level of risk you are willing to take as the owner when modding especially when adding FI to an NA engine, by having the torque curve that he has he is essentially adding more stress to the rods/engine for little to no real return especially compared to running a more modest flatlined torque curve and actually making more power top end.

No one is saying the tune is bad and going to blow his engine because of a bad tune. but OP is concerned and doesn't want to take unnecessary risk since going FI already has a great inherent risk and that can be mitigated some by changing and tweaking the powerband and delivery.

[jeepmor]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Blowing up engine is bad for business, but OP Is also making almost double the WTQ as stock, blowing an engine isn't always about a bad tune (knock, detonation, running lean etc...) If I was pushing 500whp on 25psi+ I wouldn't blame the tune or tuner for an engine failure.

You decide what level of risk you are willing to take as the owner when modding especially when adding FI to an NA engine, by having the torque curve that he has he is essentially adding more stress to the rods/engine for little to no real return especially compared to running a more modest flatlined torque curve and actually making more power top end.

No one is saying the tune is bad and going to blow his engine because of a bad tune. but OP is concerned and doesn't want to take unnecessary risk since going FI already has a great inherent risk and that can be mitigated some by changing and tweaking the powerband and delivery.

My point, which I didn't state clearly, is that his results were from a hub dyno, not a wheeled dyno. The extra power required to turn about 80-100lbs of wheel and tire is likely difference he's seeing as typically tire based dyno results are the norm. I'd expect some differences as the moment of inertia for the tires themselves being left out in one test method vs the other is all. And yes, if the customer wants to push it, it's their prerogative , but it doesn't sound the like the OP requested it, the tuner just dialed it in where he saw fit.

He should talk to the tuner and ask some questions and have the tuner talk him though what he did and why. Those guys are gear heads too and usually happy to educate the customer to alleviate anxiety. I have a buddy with a Cadillac that tweaks his own tunes. There's a lot to understand and I can barely follow his explanations of some things as I just don't know the terms.

I agree on the risk and working to mitigate it, but I think I'd put it on a tire dyno or talk to my hub tuner to learn more first.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by jeepmor

My point, which I didn't state clearly, is that his results were from a hub dyno, not a wheeled dyno. The extra power required to turn about 80-100lbs of wheel and tire is likely difference he's seeing as typically tire based dyno results are the norm. I'd expect some differences as the moment of inertia for the tires themselves being left out in one test method vs the other is all. And yes, if the customer wants to push it, it's their prerogative , but it doesn't sound the like the OP requested it, the tuner just dialed it in where he saw fit.

He should talk to the tuner and ask some questions and have the tuner talk him though what he did and why. Those guys are gear heads too and usually happy to educate the customer to alleviate anxiety. I have a buddy with a Cadillac that tweaks his own tunes. There's a lot to understand and I can barely follow his explanations of some things as I just don't know the terms.

I agree on the risk and working to mitigate it, but I think I'd put it on a tire dyno or talk to my hub tuner to learn more first.

I agree there are 101 variables and comparing dyno to dyno is pointless. But the "80 lbs of wheel/tire weight" is negligible (rotational mass having any meaningful impact has been debunked over and over through physics and testing). Also If that was actually true it would be represented across the entire powerband and not just a small portion in the mid range he is concerned with.


"Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
If this is/was in fact true then your HP is proportionally much lower as well. if you are saying at 220WTQ you are really making 185WTQ then around 7k at peak WHP applying that same logic you are only really making about 158WTQ or 210whp at 7k rpm."

his problem statement is essentially why is he making so much more power specifically torque in the mid range vs the advertised dyno numbers, the answer is he is custom tuned and not carb tuned. .

Now his follow up is he is concerned with having so much WTQ.
Solution lower the WTQ in mid range. He can also most likely optimize top end, rev the car out near redline and actually make more WTQ across the useable powerband while making less low/mid torque and peak torque to actually have a faster car overall that is also simultaneously a safer/more reliable tune.

As I advised he needs to talk to his tuner about this, the tweaking of the mid range torque can easily be done to turn it down if he is concerned with so much mid range WTQ (which is what snaps rods btw), whether or not the top end has more room to be optimized safely without knock he needs to sort with his tuner, he may also be able to add supporting mods he doesn't already have to aid in keeping the top end up as I already mentioned.

[BrahmaBull1990]

Really great responses; thank you all. The car has been great and I’m not a driver to lay into the throttle, so I’ve been keeping with my driving style of rolling slowly into the throttle and not hammering it until over 4k.

I also make a practice of not going over 1/4 throttle when under 3k unless I downshift. The car has felt really good, so I’m leaving it for now. I did just add a Forester oil cooler and a PCV catch can. So I feel more confident when pushing it a bit now.

Again, thank you all for the replies!

[Brz-123]

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull1990

Really great responses; thank you all. The car has been great and I’m not a driver to lay into the throttle, so I’ve been keeping with my driving style of rolling slowly into the throttle and not hammering it until over 4k.

I also make a practice of not going over 1/4 throttle when under 3k unless I downshift. The car has felt really good, so I’m leaving it for now. I did just add a Forester oil cooler and a PCV catch can. So I feel more confident when pushing it a bit now.

Again, thank you all for the replies!

All the best.
Throttle pedal mapping is also key as pressing quarter throttle can give you all the torque if they have mapped it that way. The new GR 86 is supposed to go WOT on half throttle while BRZ is mapped linearly.

Oil cooler is a safety add but is primarily useful only for track days as on public roads, you rarely overheat the car and hence the oil.

Over the next few months do let us know how much your oil catch can collects!



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[BrahmaBull1990]

Originally Posted by Brz-123

All the best.
Throttle pedal mapping is also key as pressing quarter throttle can give you all the torque if they have mapped it that way. The new GR 86 is supposed to go WOT on half throttle while BRZ is mapped linearly.

Oil cooler is a safety add but is primarily useful only for track days as on public roads, you rarely overheat the car and hence the oil.

Over the next few months do let us know how much your oil catch can collects!



Sent from my SM-G781B using Tapatalk

I will keep you updated, thank you. I’m using the Forester oil regulator, so I do not have oil warming issues in the winter. I can tell that 1/4 throttle feels almost stock but as I roll to half, I can feel the boost much more. So my throttle control has gotten much better (when trying to avoid max boost, especially at lower RPM and higher gears).

[Aztec]

I would highly highly suggest getting a re-tune from Zach at Counter Space Garage. He has been tuning boosted 86/BRZ of all sorts since they came out. He used to be the lead calibrator for delicious.

He just finalized his remote tune after datalogging I did for him for a few weeks straight. He purposely has lower torque and boost under 3500-4000rpm, that's intentional to save the engine. Boost (and therefore torque) comes on much more powerful between 3800-4500 and pulls straight to redline.
If you want I can post some clips later

OH, I'm also getting my 4.875 FD gears finalized in my diff tomorrow which I would highly recommend considering for your car if you want a bit more oomf around town. I ran 4.56 gears from Weir Performance for around 5 years on my FRS before I sold it and got the BRZ with the Edelbrock. Shorter gears would allow you to have more torque available all the time anywhere, completely makes the car feel more eager and it doesn't greatly negatively impact your RPMs.
When I was on 4.56 gears on 17" wheels, 80mph was 4K RPM in 6th. Completely fine for highway driving imo.
I'm just a mad lad and want slightly shorter gears with the BRZ

Here is an example of Edelbrock, 4.88 FD and E85
(Not my video) but convinced me to get 4.88

86/BRZ use the same FD gears as the 3rd gen supra:
http://www.weirperformance.com/finaldrivegears.html

Tunes are what blow up engines, I would get it retuned by Zach:
https://www.counterspacegarage.com/p...ota-86-brz-frs

[BrahmaBull1990]

@Aztec

Great to hear! Do you have a dyno chart I can view, by chance?

[Hurricane Nate]

Originally Posted by Aztec

I would highly highly suggest getting a re-tune from Zach at Counter Space Garage. He has been tuning boosted 86/BRZ of all sorts since they came out. He used to be the lead calibrator for delicious.

He just finalized his remote tune after datalogging I did for him for a few weeks straight. He purposely has lower torque and boost under 3500-4000rpm, that's intentional to save the engine. Boost (and therefore torque) comes on much more powerful between 3800-4500 and pulls straight to redline.
If you want I can post some clips later

OH, I'm also getting my 4.875 FD gears finalized in my diff tomorrow which I would highly recommend considering for your car if you want a bit more oomf around town. I ran 4.56 gears from Weir Performance for around 5 years on my FRS before I sold it and got the BRZ with the Edelbrock. Shorter gears would allow you to have more torque available all the time anywhere, completely makes the car feel more eager and it doesn't greatly negatively impact your RPMs.
When I was on 4.56 gears on 17" wheels, 80mph was 4K RPM in 6th. Completely fine for highway driving imo.
I'm just a mad lad and want slightly shorter gears with the BRZ



Tunes are what blow up engines, I would get it retuned by Zach:
https://www.counterspacegarage.com/p...ota-86-brz-frs

I'm also super pleased with Zach's tune for my Edelbrock SC kit. Like at @Aztec said, the torque really comes on in the mid range, and the linear torque based throttle mapping provides a really great pedal feel, as I can easily hold back a little throttle until I want full beans. Every bit of pedal movement (all the way to the end) has an effect I can feel all the way through ma butt dyno.