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Old 07-09-2021, 11:50 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
I don’t know what other modifications you have besides the supercharger. Do you have a header or anything?

This is Edelbrock’s CARB tune, right? They provide a single tune, right?


You aren’t seeing a higher horsepower because there was drop off at the top, and he didn’t rev it out to 7500rpms; he stopped at 7000rpms. Was he seeing knock? Was he at the end of fueling? Was it a hot day, or had the engine reached heat soak? Was he just being conservative? I don’t know. Ask him why it tapers off so much at the top. Seems like he got more torque down low.

I was on E85 at 14.5psi, which is around 275wtq. I didn’t hard launch too often, nor did I downshift two gears too often, but there was plenty of hard driving. The transmission can take more than stock torque. You can break the transmission on stock torque too.

With a k24 turbo in the works, I’ll be testing the stock transmissions limits. We will see what happens.
This is extremely helpful. I do have a catless UEL header, but stock FP (for noise).

I asked them for a conservative tune and I know they are very familiar with Suabrus. I'm thinking he set the cut-off lower because I told him I do not wring-it-out.

Looking on NASIOC, my actual TQ with wheels might actually be quite a bit lower..this was on a hub dyno.

The dyno was done around 65*F and with 92 octane
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There's a point at 7,000 RPM... where everything fades. The machine becomes weightless. Just disappears. And all that's left is a body moving through space and time. 7,000 RPM. That's where you meet it. You feel it coming. It creeps up on you, close in your ear. Asks you a question. The only question that matters. Who are you?
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Old 07-09-2021, 11:59 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BrahmaBull1990 View Post

Looking on NASIOC, my actual TQ with wheels might actually be quite a bit lower..this was on a hub dyno.
If this is/was in fact true then your HP is proportionally much lower as well. if you are saying at 220WTQ you are really making 185WTQ then around 7k at peak WHP applying that same logic you are only really making about 158WTQ or 210whp at 7k rpm.

Most likely this is not the case. Now if your torque held around 220wtq to redline then maybe it would be. but you would be seeing about 295WHP at 7k on the dyno.

You say your "tuner" so I assuming this is a custom tune and not carb tune, if so then problem solved, the kit with custom tune can make far more power than the carb tune.


Curious why you are short shifting so much and probably bogging the engine and also stressing the rods so much by doing so?
Is your goal to go slower and also increase risk to your engine and wear out transmission?
I would get a clutch rated for 220+wtq and then call it a day and stop worrying about it, if trans starts losing gears it is what it is.

You could also request to have your tuner detune it in mid range and limit it to 200WTQ but see if he can/what you can do to hold onto that 200WTQ to redline. 200WTQ at 7k rpm is 265WHP.
That should be relatively safe on drivetrain components especially if you get a clutch.
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Old 07-09-2021, 12:06 PM   #17
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We confirmed three different brands of local dynos this spring as well.
Each run was made under the same weather conditions with reported boost averaging 7.5 psi and no changes to the calibration. The tested car was a 2004 NSX with the MSL OBDII AEM solution and Lovefab single turbo kit.

Here are the numbers:

Mustang Dyno (Payn Tech)...................395.6 HP / 308.9 TQ (SAE)
Dynojet (Advanced Chassis Dyno)..........402.3 HP / 318.8 TQ (SAE)
Dynapak (Godspeed)............................438.2 HP / 324.3 TQ (SAE)
I found this interesting.
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Old 07-09-2021, 12:11 PM   #18
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If this is/was in fact true then your HP is proportionally much lower as well. if you are saying at 220WTQ you are really making 185WTQ then around 7k at peak WHP applying that same logic you are only really making about 158WTQ or 210whp at 7k rpm.

Most likely this is not the case. Now if your torque held around 220wtq to redline then maybe it would be. but you would be seeing about 295WHP at 7k on the dyno.

You say your "tuner" so I assuming this is a custom tune and not carb tune, if so then problem solved, the kit with custom tune can make far more power than the carb tune.


Curious why you are short shifting so much and probably bogging the engine and also stressing the rods so much by doing so?
Is your goal to go slower and also increase risk to your engine and wear out transmission?
I would get a clutch rated for 220+wtq and then call it a day and stop worrying about it, if trans starts losing gears it is what it is.

You could also request to have your tuner detune it in mid range and limit it to 200WTQ but see if he can/what you can do to hold onto that 200WTQ to redline. 200WTQ at 7k rpm is 265WHP.
That should be relatively safe on drivetrain components especially if you get a clutch.
Thank you for the reply. So how is my whp so low relative to tq? I shift at 5k because I am just trying to save the motor from additional wear that comes with FI. So I thought shifting sooner was saving the additional stresses a bit. My WHP and TQ at 5k RPM are about max anyways.

Am I doing it wrong? I'm not used to wringing-out a motor and was just trying to baby it.

This is a custom tune with Robert at Drive Auto in Everett, WA. I would rather leave it how it is since I love the drivability, but I want to keep it in the realm of reliability. I'm ready to buy a new tranny if I have to, but I only have 8k miles on the car haha

ZERO issues so far *knock on wood* I am just trying to be mindful....feel like I might be bordering paranoia now.
@86TOYO2k17 What RPM would you consider "lugging" the engine? 3k or lower? Let's say in 3rd gear.
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There's a point at 7,000 RPM... where everything fades. The machine becomes weightless. Just disappears. And all that's left is a body moving through space and time. 7,000 RPM. That's where you meet it. You feel it coming. It creeps up on you, close in your ear. Asks you a question. The only question that matters. Who are you?

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Old 07-09-2021, 12:38 PM   #19
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Thank you for the reply. So how is my whp so low relative to tq? I shift at 5k because I am just trying to save the motor from additional wear that comes with FI. So I thought shifting sooner was saving the additional stresses a bit. My WHP and TQ at 5k RPM are about max anyways.

Am I doing it wrong? I'm not used to wringing-out a motor and was just trying to baby it.

This is a custom tune with Robert at Drive Auto in Everett, WA. I would rather leave it how it is since I love the drivability, but I want to keep it in the realm of reliability. I'm ready to buy a new tranny if I have to, but I only have 8k miles on the car haha

ZERO issues so far *knock on wood* I am just trying to be mindful....feel like I might be bordering paranoia now.
@86TOYO2k17 What RPM would you consider "lugging" the engine? 3k or lower? Let's say in 3rd gear.
Cant see the dyno at work, but I assume if you googled how HP is calculated you would have your answer.
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Old 07-09-2021, 12:46 PM   #20
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Cant see the dyno at work, but I assume if you googled how HP is calculated you would have your answer.
My peak TQ is 220 at 4926RPM and my WHP is 246 at 6687 RPM on the dyno

So the calculation for HP is (TQxRPM)/5252.

(220*4926)/5252= 206hp...seems odd, no? Maybe I am calculating this wrong haha
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There's a point at 7,000 RPM... where everything fades. The machine becomes weightless. Just disappears. And all that's left is a body moving through space and time. 7,000 RPM. That's where you meet it. You feel it coming. It creeps up on you, close in your ear. Asks you a question. The only question that matters. Who are you?
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Old 07-09-2021, 12:47 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BrahmaBull1990 View Post
Thank you for the reply. So how is my whp so low relative to tq? I shift at 5k because I am just trying to save the motor from additional wear that comes with FI. So I thought shifting sooner was saving the additional stresses a bit. My WHP and TQ at 5k RPM are about max anyways.

Am I doing it wrong? I'm not used to wringing-out a motor and was just trying to baby it.

This is a custom tune with Robert at Drive Auto in Everett, WA. I would rather leave it how it is since I love the drivability, but I want to keep it in the realm of reliability. I'm ready to buy a new tranny if I have to, but I only have 8k miles on the car haha

ZERO issues so far *knock on wood* I am just trying to be mindful....feel like I might be bordering paranoia now.
@86TOYO2k17 What RPM would you consider "lugging" the engine? 3k or lower? Let's say in 3rd gear.
You're looking at peak hp and peak torque. You can see at peak power you're around 185lb/ft and the math checks out. Horsepower is just a calculation involving torque and engine RPM, it's an equation to calculate work. With dynapacks reading high I think you're fine and worrying too much.
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Old 07-09-2021, 12:48 PM   #22
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My peak TQ is 220 at 4926RPM and my WHP is 246 at 6687 RPM on the dyno

So the calculation for HP is (TQxRPM)/5252.

(220*4926)/5252= 206hp...seems odd, no? Maybe I am calculating this wrong haha
If you look at your chart, your car is making ~206hp at ~5k rpm. Torque and horsepower are related based on RPM.

I.e you can make 300lb ft at 3000rpm which comes out to 172hp at 3000rpm, then have timing/fueling/boost (for turbo) taper off and make 185lb/ft at 7500rpm and power will be 265whp. If you carry 300lb ft to 7500rpm HP will be 428hp. Do you see how they are related now?

For engine longevity it's generally rule of thumb to keep torque lower and flat in order to make power at higher RPMs. As stated, 185lb ft to 7500rpm is 265hp. Could you make way more torque down low? Sure, at the risk of your engine.

Some engines make obscene torque down low (my mazdaspeeds were ~380lb ft and ~320whp) but this is down to tuning and turbo size.
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Old 07-09-2021, 01:11 PM   #23
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You're looking at peak hp and peak torque. You can see at peak power you're around 185lb/ft and the math checks out. Horsepower is just a calculation involving torque and engine RPM, it's an equation to calculate work. With dynapacks reading high I think you're fine and worrying too much.
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Originally Posted by alphasaur View Post
If you look at your chart, your car is making ~206hp at ~5k rpm. Torque and horsepower are related based on RPM.

I.e you can make 300lb ft at 3000rpm which comes out to 172hp at 3000rpm, then have timing/fueling/boost (for turbo) taper off and make 185lb/ft at 7500rpm and power will be 265whp. If you carry 300lb ft to 7500rpm HP will be 428hp. Do you see how they are related now?

For engine longevity it's generally rule of thumb to keep torque lower and flat in order to make power at higher RPMs. As stated, 185lb ft to 7500rpm is 265hp. Could you make way more torque down low? Sure, at the risk of your engine.

Some engines make obscene torque down low (my mazdaspeeds were ~380lb ft and ~320whp) but this is down to tuning and turbo size.
Amazing! I see the functional relationship between the two now. I came with a question and learned so much here. Thank you.

Also, I am being paranoid, I agree haha
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There's a point at 7,000 RPM... where everything fades. The machine becomes weightless. Just disappears. And all that's left is a body moving through space and time. 7,000 RPM. That's where you meet it. You feel it coming. It creeps up on you, close in your ear. Asks you a question. The only question that matters. Who are you?
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Old 07-09-2021, 01:41 PM   #24
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Thank you for the reply. So how is my whp so low relative to tq? I shift at 5k because I am just trying to save the motor from additional wear that comes with FI. So I thought shifting sooner was saving the additional stresses a bit. My WHP and TQ at 5k RPM are about max anyways.

Am I doing it wrong? I'm not used to wringing-out a motor and was just trying to baby it.

This is a custom tune with Robert at Drive Auto in Everett, WA. I would rather leave it how it is since I love the drivability, but I want to keep it in the realm of reliability. I'm ready to buy a new tranny if I have to, but I only have 8k miles on the car haha

ZERO issues so far *knock on wood* I am just trying to be mindful....feel like I might be bordering paranoia now.
@86TOYO2k17 What RPM would you consider "lugging" the engine? 3k or lower? Let's say in 3rd gear.
looks like @alphasaur explained most of this so I wont get into that.

but,

Torque is what kills things not HP and not necessarily RPM (unless valve float or oiling issue which I doubt you have), by short shifting so much you are actually in a meatier part of the torque curve (more torque) and actually stressing engine components more.

Generally people don't recommend going WOT below 4500rpm as the engine doesn't typically like this, especially in higher gears like 3rd+. Short shifting at 5500rpm puts you into unsafe WOT territories once in the following gear.

I have also read things that I don't fully understand essentially saying the time underload is greater at lower RPM and so generating more force (torque) in this circumstance causes more risk and stress on components especially the rods.

IMO by short shifting you are actually accomplishing the opposite of what you are intending to achieve.

Changing the tune wouldn't effect drivability and you would probably enjoy it more, be faster, and be safer simultaneously. I would rather have a slow ramp up of torque to hit a modest peak (200WTQ) at 5000rpm and then flatline that torque to redline, vs having a big mound of torque 4k-6k (225WTQ) with a big drop off 6k+ (185WTQ).

Also I just realized we are basically neighbors (lake Stevens)
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Old 07-09-2021, 01:51 PM   #25
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looks like @alphasaur explained most of this so I wont get into that.

but,

Torque is what kills things not HP and not necessarily RPM (unless valve float or oiling issue which I doubt you have), by short shifting so much you are actually in a meatier part of the torque curve (more torque) and actually stressing engine components more.

Generally people don't recommend going WOT below 4500rpm as the engine doesn't typically like this, especially in higher gears like 3rd+. Short shifting at 5500rpm puts you into unsafe WOT territories once in the following gear.

I have also read things that I don't fully understand essentially saying the time underload is greater at lower RPM and so generating more force (torque) in this circumstance causes more risk and stress on components especially the rods.

IMO by short shifting you are actually accomplishing the opposite of what you are intending to achieve.

Changing the tune wouldn't effect drivability and you would probably enjoy it more, be faster, and be safer simultaneously. I would rather have a slow ramp up of torque to hit a modest peak (200WTQ) at 5000rpm and then flatline that torque to redline, vs having a big mound of torque 4k-6k (225WTQ) with a big drop off 6k+ (185WTQ).

Also I just realized we are basically neighbors (lake Stevens)

That makes sense. I’ll call them and see about tweaking my tune. Small world! I swim in Lake Stevens all the time - great place!

I need to find the local meet-ups around here. I see the Twins all over the place.
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There's a point at 7,000 RPM... where everything fades. The machine becomes weightless. Just disappears. And all that's left is a body moving through space and time. 7,000 RPM. That's where you meet it. You feel it coming. It creeps up on you, close in your ear. Asks you a question. The only question that matters. Who are you?
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Old 07-15-2021, 11:19 PM   #26
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Curious why you are short shifting so much and probably bogging the engine and also stressing the rods so much by doing so?
Easy there, these are street cars. It's not prudent to shift at the limit every time we go get some groceries.
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Old 07-15-2021, 11:38 PM   #27
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That makes sense. I’ll call them and see about tweaking my tune. Small world! I swim in Lake Stevens all the time - great place!

I need to find the local meet-ups around here. I see the Twins all over the place.
I wouldn't tweak the tune just yet, but if you can collect data for your tuner, he should be able to review it with you. I think you're fine, blowing up engines is bad for business.

On the meet up angle, Look up Drift Office and/or Bob Watanabe for Washington. Bob recently passed, but he was a great resource for tuning, sharing local events, and finding tidbits on what's coming down the chain from manufacturers all the way down to part change updates besides the dreaded TOB. Haven't visited his page for a while, but he had a significant area following that should help you find other 86 owners to hang with in Washington.

Hope some of this helps. I'm in the PDX area for reference, Drift Office seemed to be the predominant tuning shop that I could find. Otherwise folks went with Delicious or CSG.

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Old 07-15-2021, 11:47 PM   #28
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I wouldn't tweak the tune just yet, but I'd try a tire based dyno if I was that concerned. I think you're fine, blowing up engines is bad for business.

On the meet up angle, Look up Drift Office and/or Bob Watanabe for Washington. Bob recently passed, but he was a great resource for tuning, sharing local events, and finding tidbits on what's coming down the chain from manufacturers all the way down to part updates in parts. Haven't visited his page for a while, but he had a significant area following that should help you find other 86 owners to hang with in Washington.

Hope some of this helps being a from PDX area.
Most the meet-ups are in southern Puget Sound, so we are about the same distance from them haha

I actually met Bob about a month before he passed. He bought my stock PP suspension for his drift car. Really nice guy and chatted with me for a bit. His shop was buzzing with people and he clearly had the respect of his peers.
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There's a point at 7,000 RPM... where everything fades. The machine becomes weightless. Just disappears. And all that's left is a body moving through space and time. 7,000 RPM. That's where you meet it. You feel it coming. It creeps up on you, close in your ear. Asks you a question. The only question that matters. Who are you?
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