Cooling Dilemmas

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

best way is to put an oil cooler on the side as hks do

Harrop does this for their time attack car. I’m guessing the side area is used for brake vents.

[tomm.brz]

doesn't look like a street car so... i bet they don't even have the AC cooler

For the street and occasional track i d prefer to put oil cooler on the side and leave the intercooler free

[airrick]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You'll need to guide the air there and allow for an outlet. Otherwise, it's a very low flow area.

can 100% confirm this. My oil cooler with no venting out on the passenger side didnt really get any cooler as i drove around town in 50F weather was at 190-200F which isn't a big deal but yea in summertime that's obviously gonna be higher. Even just on low rpm (2000-2500) cruising on the highway my temps took forever to cool down near 185F thermostat.

Will be adding some air ducting at the fog lights and copying @86TOYO2k17 with his louver vent things on the fender liner/wheel well.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Hotter cooler in front of a cooler cooler.

The intercooler then becomes an interwarmer.

I get the question, but I question the problem. Of course we can discuss a hypothetical problem and find solutions to potential issues. It is helpful to know the goals and driving conditions for a more accurate, tailored answer. There are people with turbo kits without any cooling issues for their needs where the oil cooler is in front of an intercooler that is in front of a AC cooler that is in front of a radiator or even ones running no oil cooler.

As you know, the Supra’s bumper has places where they blocked off the opening, saying that there was too much cooling. Several cars have active, bumper louvers to avoid overcooling along with helping with aerodynamics, so again, I’m just curious if this is going to be an actual problem for the OP.

[czellers]

[QUOTE=Irace86.2.0;3407372]I get the question, but I question the problem. Of course we can discuss a hypothetical problem and find solutions to potential issues. It is helpful to know the goals and driving conditions for a more accurate, tailored answer. There are people with turbo kits without any cooling issues for their needs where the oil cooler is in front of an intercooler that is in front of a AC cooler that is in front of a radiator or even ones running no oil cooler.

As you know, the Supra’s bumper has places where they blocked off the opening, saying that there was too much cooling. Several cars have active, bumper louvers to avoid overcooling along with helping with aerodynamics, so again, I’m just curious if this is going to be an actual problem for the OP.

"Overcooling"?? Is there any conceivable fluid that could possibly be overcooled simply by airflow? If so, which and under what conditions might they be plausible/possible?

[x808drifter]

Originally Posted by czellers

"Overcooling"?? Is there any conceivable fluid that could possibly be overcooled simply by airflow? If so, which and under what conditions might they be plausible/possible?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I get the question, but I question the problem. Of course we can discuss a hypothetical problem and find solutions to potential issues. It is helpful to know the goals and driving conditions for a more accurate, tailored answer. There are people with turbo kits without any cooling issues for their needs where the oil cooler is in front of an intercooler that is in front of a AC cooler that is in front of a radiator or even ones running no oil cooler.

As you know, the Supra’s bumper has places where they blocked off the opening, saying that there was too much cooling. Several cars have active, bumper louvers to avoid overcooling along with helping with aerodynamics, so again, I’m just curious if this is going to be an actual problem for the OP.

Your vision lacks scope.

The supra ultimately ended up with more cooling than needed, so the bumper openings were blocked to increase fuel economy numbers. It's not "overcooled" at all. That's what thermostats are for.

Put a thermocouple behind an oil cooler, and look at the air temp post-cooler. Also put thermocouples in an intercooler inlet and outlet, and observe the temperatures. The evidence is universally damning.



Some people also don't have cooling issues with the Hellcat. Have you ever seen the heat exchanger on a hellcat?

It all comes down to what you do with the car. If you street drive and occasionally do a 10 second pull, you won't overheat, but an oil cooler in front of an intercooler will ALWAYS hurt power. It's just physics.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by czellers

"Overcooling"?? Is there any conceivable fluid that could possibly be overcooled simply by airflow? If so, which and under what conditions might they be plausible/possible?

You can, for example, freeze water by cooling it with air/airflow. In fact, this very idea was used to make ice in the middle of the desert as 2400 years ago!


Overcooling a car? Nah, that's what thermostats are for.

[Irace86.2.0]

[QUOTE=czellers;3407409]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I get the question, but I question the problem. Of course we can discuss a hypothetical problem and find solutions to potential issues. It is helpful to know the goals and driving conditions for a more accurate, tailored answer. There are people with turbo kits without any cooling issues for their needs where the oil cooler is in front of an intercooler that is in front of a AC cooler that is in front of a radiator or even ones running no oil cooler.

As you know, the Supra’s bumper has places where they blocked off the opening, saying that there was too much cooling. Several cars have active, bumper louvers to avoid overcooling along with helping with aerodynamics, so again, I’m just curious if this is going to be an actual problem for the OP.

"Overcooling"?? Is there any conceivable fluid that could possibly be overcooled simply by airflow? If so, which and under what conditions might they be plausible/possible?

Oil from an external oil cooler without a thermostatic plate on a stock car in Vermont in the winter.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Your vision lacks scope.

The supra ultimately ended up with more cooling than needed, so the bumper openings were blocked to increase fuel economy numbers. It's not "overcooled" at all. That's what thermostats are for.

Put a thermocouple behind an oil cooler, and look at the air temp post-cooler. Also put thermocouples in an intercooler inlet and outlet, and observe the temperatures. The evidence is universally damning.



Some people also don't have cooling issues with the Hellcat. Have you ever seen the heat exchanger on a hellcat?

It all comes down to what you do with the car. If you street drive and occasionally do a 10 second pull, you won't overheat, but an oil cooler in front of an intercooler will ALWAYS hurt power. It's just physics.

I don’t know if there are situations beyond oil coolers in cool weather where overcooling might be an issue, especially at the factory level; it seems more possible on aftermarket cars where cooling systems are setup for worse case cooling needs and not for all environmental needs. I probably missinterpreted unnecessary cooling as avoiding overcooling; I concede that those are definitely different things.

Considering radiators and intercoolers are often much taller than the bumper openings, and they are thus blocked from any significant air flow, it seems like stacking a cooler might not be a big deal, especially when size often can trump being behind dirty air, as might be the case for SMIC versus FMIC, or where there is a compromise between air flow and ducting to brakes versus an oil cooler or SMIC.

I think there is still a case for determining what are the OP’s needs, if not for avoiding overcooling because that isn’t a thing, then more for not doing anything that is overkill like purchasing things that aren’t necessary or putting work into designing/fabricating a solution for a problem that may not exist.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I don’t know if there are situations beyond oil coolers in cool weather where overcooling might be an issue, especially at the factory level; it seems more possible on aftermarket cars where cooling systems are setup for worse case cooling needs and not for all environmental needs. I probably missinterpreted unnecessary cooling as avoiding overcooling; I concede that those are definitely different things.

Considering radiators and intercoolers are often much taller than the bumper openings, and they are thus blocked from any significant air flow, it seems like stacking a cooler might not be a big deal, especially when size often can trump being behind dirty air, as might be the case for SMIC versus FMIC, or where there is a compromise between air flow and ducting to brakes versus an oil cooler or SMIC.

I think there is still a case for determining what are the OP’s needs, if not for avoiding overcooling because that isn’t a thing, then more for not doing anything that is overkill like purchasing things that aren’t necessary or putting work into designing/fabricating a solution for a problem that may not exist.

It's precisely why variable thermostats exist. Lets revisit the Supra. Like most modern non-economy cars, it has 4 states.

1. everything closed, circulate within engine only. This is to warm the engine up as quickly as possible to minimize emissions.

2. heater core only. For comfort. In typical california conditions, the heater will be warm within 25-30 seconds in such cars.

3. low flow. For economy. Regulates coolant temp to about 105C.

4. Max cooling. Typically regulates coolant temp to a floor of 85C.


Many folks going into a supra complained that their cars were running hot/overheating when they saw 105-108C cruising, not realizing.... that's how all modern euro cars are, whether its a Supra, BMW, Porsche, Merc, or Audi. Even basic VWs do this.


Why do most 86's "overcool the oil"? Because people just don't seem to be able to get it into their heads that the oil temp observed is post-cooler. And the thermostatic plates are very basic.


Cooling is an equilibrium problem. A hot oil cooler in front of an intercooler, even if the intercooler is much larger, hurts efficiency.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's precisely why variable thermostats exist. Lets revisit the Supra. Like most modern non-economy cars, it has 4 states.

1. everything closed, circulate within engine only. This is to warm the engine up as quickly as possible to minimize emissions.

2. heater core only. For comfort. In typical california conditions, the heater will be warm within 25-30 seconds in such cars.

3. low flow. For economy. Regulates coolant temp to about 105C.

4. Max cooling. Typically regulates coolant temp to a floor of 85C.


Many folks going into a supra complained that their cars were running hot/overheating when they saw 105-108C cruising, not realizing.... that's how all modern euro cars are, whether its a Supra, BMW, Porsche, Merc, or Audi. Even basic VWs do this.


Why do most 86's "overcool the oil"? Because people just don't seem to be able to get it into their heads that the oil temp observed is post-cooler. And the thermostatic plates are very basic.


Cooling is an equilibrium problem. A hot oil cooler in front of an intercooler, even if the intercooler is much larger, hurts efficiency.

It might hurt the efficiency of maximizing the cooling effect of the intercooler, but by how much does it make a difference? Measure temperature drops across the intercooler before and after in a variety of situations, and I am curious if the difference is significant.


I'm just thinking of radiators that are higher than the openings, intercoolers that are higher, rally cars with little openings or huge off-road lights and light bars across the front bumper, etc and how that seemed to work. Again, I agree about the fundamental efficiency/physics argument, but I question the relevant impact.

[gen3v8]

One in Three out

[CSG Mike]

Dirty coolers are worse than smaller openings. Rally cars need their coolers protected.

Again, widen your scope.

What happens if mud gets on a cooler?