Estimated Max HP for a N/A setup.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Stroked 2.2ish liter engine spinning to 9K...want. Someone do that math, that's nearer to 300whp than 200whp.

[Whitigir]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

Lol...

You realize that HP is just a multiplication of Torque and Engine revs, right? So, the higher the HP the higher the torque.

It really comes down to, where do you want the torque/power? Do you want more power down low, or up high?

If down low, you'll have higher torque, but a lower HP figure, because your producing more torque early on in the RPM range (less power). If up high, you'll have lower torque, but higher HP figure, because your producing more torque higher in the RPM range (more power, but harder to produce high torque numbers up high).

I don't know much about f1 engines but do know they rev to well past 10k. I've heard in the range of 18k-20k+. That would have a lot to do with why they don't need a lot of "torque" to produce good power, as those engines wouldn't need big torque numbers with the high RPMs.

And still, even with 2800 lbs 135 torque at 3500 is nothing impressive. Again, HP is for max speed, and Torque is to move the car.

The low Torque is why every person weight count in the FRS 0-60MPH. A big change from between a Driver and + 2 Passengers.


When speaking about car and performance, the earlier the Torque, the faster the car is....problem = Traction. GTR has mastered this, Strong Torque at Super Low RPM, and Electronic systems will distribute the Torque and gain tractions. That is why a GTR can reach 0-60mph in just 2.9 seconds (335 lb/ft @ 3000 RPM @ 3800 lbs weight). But GTR has only 540 HP, therefore in a 1/4 mile it can not beat a ZR1, it can only win from 0-60MPH

Generally F1 would have around at least 250 Lb/ft Torque, but for their weight, high RPM + Clutch ...whatever else, that was enough to just move that Weight without problem. That is why higher HP once the car moving = faster car.

Simply put. Torque at the wheels to Weight Ratio is the most important for a Car. HP will only count when your car is moving. You can have a 500HP car, and have 50 Torque @ 3000lbs...The out come = your engine Died out. If you drive a Manual....try putting it into 5th gear, and have it move....that is Torque. Of course if you were to rev it to 8000 rpm and burn your clutch...your car may move....I never tried, but that will kill your drive train.

Therefore with how advanced the F1 car are nowadays, the Low Torque around 250lb/ft at High rev + friction = Fast car. In our Daily car...the Higher the Torque to Weight ratio at lower RPM = the better

[Ryuu0u]

People bring up the 300hp N/A honda motors but from what I remember those engines are almost impossible to drive on the street. I don't see our engines being that high strung of a N/A motor. You'd probably be better off cost wise with a turbo at 300hp than trying to reach it N/A. Just my opinion though since i'm no engineer.

[mrk1]

NA hp generally is more money per hp then FI. However if your trying to make your car faster and stay NA there are other methods, namely lightweight parts and new final drive in the diff.

I think its way to early to put a max # on the motor, I really hope to see companies developing NA mods past the regular bolt on's. Im already amazed at how many people have jumped on the FI train this quick.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

And still, even with 2800 lbs 135 torque at 3500 is nothing impressive. Again, HP is for max speed, and Torque is to move the car.

The low Torque is why every person weight count in the FRS 0-60MPH. A big change from between a Driver and + 2 Passengers.


When speaking about car and performance, the earlier the Torque, the faster the car is....problem = Traction. GTR has mastered this, Strong Torque at Super Low RPM, and Electronic systems will distribute the Torque and gain tractions. That is why a GTR can reach 0-60mph in just 2.9 seconds (335 lb/ft @ 3000 RPM @ 3800 lbs weight). But GTR has only 540 HP, therefore in a 1/4 mile it can not beat a ZR1, it can only win from 0-60MPH

Generally F1 would have around at least 250 Lb/ft Torque, but for their weight, high RPM + Clutch ...whatever else, that was enough to just move that Weight without problem. That is why higher HP once the car moving = faster car.

Simply put. Torque at the wheels to Weight Ratio is the most important for a Car. HP will only count when your car is moving. You can have a 500HP car, and have 50 Torque @ 3000lbs...The out come = your engine Died out. If you drive a Manual....try putting it into 5th gear, and have it move....that is Torque. Of course if you were to rev it to 8000 rpm and burn your clutch...your car may move....I never tried, but that will kill your drive train.

Therefore with how advanced the F1 car are nowadays, the Low Torque around 250lb/ft at High rev + friction = Fast car. In our Daily car...the Higher the Torque to Weight ratio at lower RPM = the better

My point is, it depends if you want torque early in the RPM range, or later. For a track car, higher HP numbers are probably better (as well as higher usable horsepower), as at the track your going to be high in the RPM range much more often. For a straight line/drag strip car, higher HP numbers down low are probably better. Both of these HP numbers are based on the amount of torque being produced at the particular RPM. Yes, torque is what gets the car moving of course, but HP is a "measurement" of the amount of power being produced from the torque & engine speed.

For a daily driver, it all depends on what you want. If you want something with more "useful" power for daily driving, more power down low is going to be more useful to 90% of people. But if you want something to really move when you start wringing it out (like *stock*), you'll want more power up high.

I'm not building my car to be a straight line monster, but somebody else might. The point I'm trying to make, is it all comes down to what the particular person wants and his/her goals for the car. Yes, TQ is what gets the car moving, but HP is a result of TQ multiplied by RPM. So, HP and TQ are directly related, and both are a "useful" number.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgLNO3ThGD4"]Horsepower vs Torque - Explained - YouTube[/ame]

EDIT: I'm not mentioning weight because I'm replying to your point about HP not being relevant. Of course, lighter weight, means a better power to weight ratio and better acceleration, and any person building a "fast" car should take weight into consideration as well.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by kayoh

Just like the title says, what do you think would be the max hp obtainable for a n/a setup on the FRS/BRZ.

How much money do you have? I think that's what it'll ultimately come down to.

[kayoh]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

How much money do you have? I think that's what it'll ultimately come down to.

I don't have the car...yet...I planning on picking one up mid June/July of next year (Unless they have something big planned for the 2015 BRZ). To answer your question, I'm planning on budgeting $300-400/mo on car parts once I do get it.

I'm not trying to make the fastest n/a car. I just want to get the the car the whp everyone says it needs (200+ whp). I'm trying to stay away from FI/SC because this car will be my daily driver. I commute ~80 Miles/day and I don't want to deal with having to upgrade brakes, needing wider tires, worrying about failing parts, how much much replacement parts and labor would cost, not to mention the downtime.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by kayoh

I don't have the car...yet...I planning on picking one up mid June/July of next year (Unless they have something big planned for the 2015 BRZ). To answer your question, I'm planning on budgeting $300-400/mo on car parts once I do get it.

I'm not trying to make the fastest n/a car. I just want to get the the car the whp everyone says it needs (200+ whp).

You can get to 200+ whp with e85, tune, header, and headerback exhaust. That'll set you back around $3500, give or take.

If you want more than that, you'll have to wait for some additional NA development on this car (ITB's, cams, etc.)

[mrk1]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

How much money do you have? I think that's what it'll ultimately come down to.

haha yeah, its not how fast can you go, its how fast can you afford to go

[srt4evah]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Watch Nameless Performance. They just picked up a second car for N/A development. ITBs, cams, the whole deal.

That's pretty exciting. I'd love to see a naturally aspirated option that would give us around 10:1 weight to power ratio. 10:1 is pretty ideal in my opinion, for street driving. You can cut a quarter mile in the mid to low 13's and traps around 105mph, putting the straight line performance right in line with most of the ~$30-35k sports coupes while still maintaining the best handling characteristics anywhere near the price point.

It might be pricey, but just for me personally, I'd rather have 270 N/A horsepower than 350 turbocharged horsepower, even if it costs me $6-10k to get that 270. Full exhaust with headers, intake, ITBs, intake manifold, head work and cams with the appropriate valvetrain would get the job done pretty handily, although I foresee possibly needing a new crank and rods if it's done by revving out to 10k RPMs.

Besides, if N/A was good enough for Takumi, it's good enough for me... lol.

[WatchmaN]

Without e85 max 190whp for now till nameless gets it's header out. hehe

[Praetendere]

I've read a couple of places that the Honda heads just flow better than these, is anyone working on improved heads for this engine? Or is that not something that is going to happen?

[SiSGT86]

personally, I'm going to wait for parts. I'd like to hit 250whp NA

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by Praetendere

I've read a couple of places that the Honda heads just flow better than these, is anyone working on improved heads for this engine? Or is that not something that is going to happen?

With an I4 engine its much easier to make the power. Intake manifolds are simpler due to a more configurable runner length and plenum size, only 1 head to design/change, not 2. Also variable lift cams would make a huge difference, rather than just some can timing adjustment. Then the cams themselves could be improved.

Don't forget that Honda's are already designed to rev happier, which gives them a peak HP advantage. If you look at what the stock K20 is doing at 6900rpm, its not to dis-similar to the FA20