Papa Toyota unhappy that the BRZ/86 feels like a Subaru

[KR-S]

Originally Posted by Willpower

I wouldn’t be worried about the 86 seeming too Subaru if I was Toyota. If I was Toyota, what I’d be worried about is a well executed 400Z. To my eye, the 400Z SLAMS the Supra, and the upcoming 86 in the looks department, and if my math is right, has the potential to scorch the Supra in performance. And, don’t think for a minute that people don’t cross shop all three. Yours truly is one. I could buy either, and the Supra didn’t get anywhere close to attractive enough for me to consider moving to a new platform from my 17 BRZ. This 400Z though, it’s got potential. Great styling in my opinion. They execute the rest well and they might get my business. That, and make a killer orange pigment for the exterior please.

When I saw leaks of the production Z35, I already thinking to myself that this might very well be my next car, instead of the second-gen 86.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Willpower

I wouldn’t be worried about the 86 seeming too Subaru if I was Toyota. If I was Toyota, what I’d be worried about is a well executed 400Z. To my eye, the 400Z SLAMS the Supra, and the upcoming 86 in the looks department,

(240)Z guy from way back... The new Z looks awkward as hell to my eye. Looks like a *big* car, scrunched down to be a 2-seater (which of course is what it is). It looks like a big man with a little head. Big, bulky lower body, but tiny greenhouse and limited space for occupants. Kind of the antithesis of S30 Z ideals, that was a *small* car but with a surprising amount of space for two occupants and their stuff. I'd rather they did a legit small lightweight 200Z than a 400Z turbo beast that weighs 3400 lb.

[Willpower]

Originally Posted by ZDan

(240)Z guy from way back... The new Z looks awkward as hell to my eye. Looks like a *big* car, scrunched down to be a 2-seater (which of course is what it is). It looks like a big man with a little head. Big, bulky lower body, but tiny greenhouse and limited space for occupants. Kind of the anthesis of S30 Z ideals, that was a *small* car but with a surprising amount of space for two occupants and their stuff. I'd rather they did a legit small lightweight 200Z than a 400Z turbo beast that weighs 3400 lb.

To each his own. Always respect your opinion ZDan. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I like the way that sucker looks in pics anyway. And some of the stuff I’m reading says closer to 3200 lb. if that’s the case, and there’s 400+ hp, that’s pretty damn good for 2021.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Willpower

To each his own. Always respect your opinion ZDan. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I like the way that sucker looks in pics anyway.

I should say I'm looking forward to seeing it in person! *Some* pics look less than flattering *to me*, but yeah, eye of the beholder...

And some of the stuff I’m reading says closer to 3200 lb. if that’s the case, and there’s 400+ hp, that’s pretty damn good for 2021.

Yeah, encouraging to see "dry" weight of 3252 according to this:
https://www.400zclub.com/forum/threa...sion-more.147/

But for *me*, I'd *way* rather have a 2600 lb. Z that made 200hp, than a 3250 lb. Z that makes 400hp...

[wbradley]

The 400Z will be Nissan's 2 door version of an Audi A7

I know I'm repeating myself.

[Willpower]

Yeah, encouraging to see "dry" weight of 3252 according to this:
https://www.400zclub.com/forum/threa...sion-more.147/

But for *me*, I'd *way* rather have a 2600 lb. Z that made 200hp, than a 3250 lb. Z that makes 400hp...[/QUOTE]




With you all the way on rather seeing it at 2600 lbs. No doubt. But give me 250-275 hp. Now that would be close to perfection imo.

[Willpower]

I just think the design is so much simpler and the lines so much cleaner than the Supra.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by wbradley

The 400Z will be Nissan's 2 door version of an Audi A7

I know I'm repeating myself.

Y'know, if it came in that snot-green color, I might be in. Nissan's post-it-note yellow shade is not doing it for me at all...

[Willpower]

Give me an old 240z urng!!

(orange if I’m being too hip/unclear)

[FR-S2GT86]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

My advice is to completely avoid Jalopnik altogether. Site went to hell years ago. 90% fluff now and the other 10% is political crybabying.



Your fixation (in this thread at least) with the LC is a little curious. That platform is HEAVY. Really, REALLY heavy. Nobody wants a 4000 lb Supra, which is what would happen if you tried to make one with that platform.

Even the RC coupe is too heavy, but that's the one you should be pushing for if you wanted an in house Supra. Not the LC

Yes, the car is heavy. Most Lexus cars are. In particular, this one weighs in at 4371 lbs. But there's a reason for that, noise reduction and a smooth refined ride.

There's a stage along the production line, probably more than one, that adds heavy insulation inside panels and doors and just about everywhere else that Toyota deems necessary to quiet their luxury Lexus cars down.

In order to reduce the weight of this chassis, they could skip most of these steps. They can also reduce weight by removing the other luxury items such as the cushy seats, the wood trim, the heavy carpeting and headliner materials and instead install some lighter-weight materials. Strip this chassis down to it's skin and bones, and start from there. There should be no reason why they couldn't get the weight down to under 3000 lbs. Then they would have a great Toyota RWD car that they can install a smaller, less expensive engine and manual transmission into, which will still blow away any American-produced vehicle today in the quality and reliability department.

The RC would be a good candidate to strip down as well, but my preference in looks has to go to the LC. It's just a better looking chassis to me.

Remember the first car ever that came with the legendary 2JZ-GTE engine? Hint: it wasn't the MkIV Supra......





If Toyota can take that engine from this Lexus, and install it into arguably their best sports car ever, they should be able to make this happen.

[Sport-Tech]

The cost of losing 1000+ lbs from an existing Lexus model while keeping it street-liveable would be ridiculous. Ripping out insulation, going with lighter seats, etc. might lose you a few hundred lbs, but then you'd need to make extensive use of some type of carbon-fiber composite or go with an all-aluminum chassis and aluminum body panels to lose the rest. The car would cost as much as a Porsche.

[Willpower]

There’s just no way to lose 1000 lbs out of a car by cutting the insulation. But to the previous poster’s point, it seems like you could get a Lexus chassis down to 3600 lbs or so without making it more expensive than that BMW. Why 3600 lbs or so? Because that’s exactly where the much heralded Mark IV was. Toyota lost its way on the Supra. The Supraa of old were basically nicer, more reliable Japanese Camaros. People seem to forget this. It was a nice GT car that you could mod into a screamer. So should this one have been imo, and designed and built by Toyota completely in house. Oh but I forgot, they couldn’t because it costs too much. Yeah. I guess nobody told little old Nissan that. I hope the 400Z SLAYS the Supra. Toyota deserves it for crybabying and giving the consumers a BMW mashup when they’re one of the richest car companies in the world, and could easily have done it right.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by ZDan

But for *me*, I'd *way* rather have a 2600 lb. Z that made 200hp, than a 3250 lb. Z that makes 400hp...

You mean you'd rather just keep your car?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

You mean you'd rather just keep your car?

Yeah, but still annoyed at the 2+2 compromise, which gives it craptastic 55/45 weight distribution so not a good candidate for added power. A 2-seat cab-rearward FT86 would be great. With a 300+ hp 6 thrown in, even better! Either the new Supra or the new Z *could* have been something like that, but unfortunately they keep giving us 3300+ lb. "sports" cars, one a coupe version of a BMW boulevardier and the other built on an SUV/sedan platform. Doh!