follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Off-Topic Discussions > Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions

Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions Discuss all other cars and automotive news here.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-22-2021, 11:58 AM   #15
RayRay88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Drives: 2017 86 860 Special Edition
Location: Toronto
Posts: 559
Thanks: 198
Thanked 461 Times in 241 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
So a front engine rwd car is flawed as well?
Yes it is flawed in the sense that it to, like the RR platform, has limits. There is definitely a hierarchy in platforms.
RayRay88 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to RayRay88 For This Useful Post:
Red-86 (02-23-2021)
Old 02-22-2021, 12:22 PM   #16
WolfpackS2k
Senior Member
 
WolfpackS2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Drives: '12 C63 P31, '23 GRC
Location: NC
Posts: 3,199
Thanks: 2,934
Thanked 2,072 Times in 1,185 Posts
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
I like it, and I don’t. I need to see it in person to know for sure. I like the 992’s interior and exterior design and retro cues. I like the standard wide body. I don’t like how the rear seems more bulky or how the rear quarter panels don’t drape over the wheels.

I like touches for this GT3.
I've seen other variations of the 992 in person and my opinion is unchanged. It is such a large car. Not good at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayRay88 View Post
It's a flaw, if it wasn't then there's no reason they would have switched the 911 RSR to a MR. Same reason Corvette has transitioned to a mid engine. They both know they're reaching the limits of what a FR, RR platform can achieve this day and age with tire and aero technology where it is.
Nice attempt, but incorrect. The moved the engine forward to free up more space under the rear of the car, to allow for a huge aerodynamic diffuser that is allowed per current rules and that all their competitors were taking advantage of.
__________________
Current: 2023 GRC Circuit Edition, 2012 C63 AMG P31
Past: (2) 2000 MR2 Spyder, 2017 GTI Sport, 2006 Porsche Cayman S, Supercharged 2013 BRZ-L, 2007 Honda S2000, 1992 Integra GS-R
WolfpackS2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2021, 04:48 PM   #17
RayRay88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Drives: 2017 86 860 Special Edition
Location: Toronto
Posts: 559
Thanks: 198
Thanked 461 Times in 241 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
I've seen other variations of the 992 in person and my opinion is unchanged. It is such a large car. Not good at all.



Nice attempt, but incorrect. The moved the engine forward to free up more space under the rear of the car, to allow for a huge aerodynamic diffuser that is allowed per current rules and that all their competitors were taking advantage of.
Please reread the part where I said "platform can achieve this day and age with tire and aero technology where it is."

Having an engine in the rear hampers the ability to take advantage of a proper diffuser. This is a common problem with their road cars as well. Take a look at the bottom of a 911 GT3/GT2 and compare that with its closest competitors from Lamborghini/Ferrari and it quickly becomes apparent. If this isn't a limitation or flaw I don't know what is.

EDIT: I should qualify all of this with the fact that I absolutely adore the 911 and love everything about this new GT3, but to ignore inherent flaws is "fanboy-ism", for lack of a better phrase.
RayRay88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2021, 05:51 PM   #18
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayRay88 View Post
Please reread the part where I said "platform can achieve this day and age with tire and aero technology where it is."

Having an engine in the rear hampers the ability to take advantage of a proper diffuser. This is a common problem with their road cars as well. Take a look at the bottom of a 911 GT3/GT2 and compare that with its closest competitors from Lamborghini/Ferrari and it quickly becomes apparent. If this isn't a limitation or flaw I don't know what is.

EDIT: I should qualify all of this with the fact that I absolutely adore the 911 and love everything about this new GT3, but to ignore inherent flaws is "fanboy-ism", for lack of a better phrase.
The GT2 RS is RWD and has one of the fastest times on the Nurburgring. It probably would be possible to make it faster, but it is a compromise like Captain Snooze said between the best performance possible and the ultimate, gentleman’s, daily-driver, grand touring car.

If they made the Cayman the premier car then they would make the Cayman more premium, so the 911 would be a shorter, different Panamara, which might not be as cheap as the Cayman, but it could possibly be done. Obviously they wouldn’t want to destroy the legacy of the 911 by moving it downstream or making it mid engine. The reality is that they don’t need to based on what they can deliver with the car as is.

The rear engine setup has its advantages for packaging, but there is also more weight over the rear end too. It might be more polar, but it is also more stable at speed. Good and bad stuff.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2021, 07:20 PM   #19
mav1178
Senior Member
 
mav1178's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Drives: 2005 Toyota Camry
Location: 91745
Posts: 6,562
Thanks: 493
Thanked 6,092 Times in 3,029 Posts
Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayRay88 View Post
It's a flaw, if it wasn't then there's no reason they would have switched the 911 RSR to a MR. Same reason Corvette has transitioned to a mid engine. They both know they're reaching the limits of what a FR, RR platform can achieve this day and age with tire and aero technology where it is.

911 being rear engine is solely for continuity of branding and vehicle heritage.
I know you already said this is a flaw, but the switch to MR for the RSR was entirely driven by the rules package in LM GTE racing.

This really is no different than when BMW bent the rules to create the M3 GTR 20 years ago to try to dominate the GT category. The loophole was closed when the homologation rules was changed to requiring 100 cars + 1000 engines to be built to qualify for the GT category, and to no one's surprise BMW withdrew the car after less than a year of competing with it.
mav1178 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2021, 08:57 PM   #20
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I also think that a twin turbo flat six, or NA flat six in the GT3, is much more reasonable as a RR setup than say a Ferrari’s engine or a Lamborghini with a huge 6.5L V12 if that was RR instead of MR. Meaning, the RR setup in the 911 might not be such a flaw. Also worth noting is that the mid-FR platform in the Mercedes AMG GT Black series was the fastest around the ring just ahead of the MR Aventador.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
WolfpackS2k (02-23-2021)
Old 02-22-2021, 10:37 PM   #21
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,577
Thanks: 1,373
Thanked 3,883 Times in 2,027 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
The rear engine setup has its advantages for packaging, but there is also more weight over the rear end too. It might be more polar, but it is also more stable at speed. Good and bad stuff.
Aft c.g. generally means *less* aero stability at high speeds. Stability margin is how far in front of the center of pressure the c.g. is. If c.g. is behind the center of pressure, negative stability margin, unstable at high speed.

For land speed record runs, you add weight to the front of the car to make it more stable. If you make the mistake of adding weight to the rear of the car to "get more drive grip" on a car that's getting wheelspin and trying to go sideways at speed, you might be going for a ride, many have!
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (02-23-2021)
Old 02-22-2021, 10:55 PM   #22
RayRay88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Drives: 2017 86 860 Special Edition
Location: Toronto
Posts: 559
Thanks: 198
Thanked 461 Times in 241 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
The GT2 RS is RWD and has one of the fastest times on the Nurburgring. It probably would be possible to make it faster, but it is a compromise like Captain Snooze said between the best performance possible and the ultimate, gentleman’s, daily-driver, grand touring car.

If they made the Cayman the premier car then they would make the Cayman more premium, so the 911 would be a shorter, different Panamara, which might not be as cheap as the Cayman, but it could possibly be done. Obviously they wouldn’t want to destroy the legacy of the 911 by moving it downstream or making it mid engine. The reality is that they don’t need to based on what they can deliver with the car as is.

The rear engine setup has its advantages for packaging, but there is also more weight over the rear end too. It might be more polar, but it is also more stable at speed. Good and bad stuff.
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. I have no problem with RWD it i's the R(ear engine)R(ear wheel drive) - RR that I think is there solely for brand identity and continuity.
RayRay88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2021, 11:04 PM   #23
RayRay88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Drives: 2017 86 860 Special Edition
Location: Toronto
Posts: 559
Thanks: 198
Thanked 461 Times in 241 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mav1178 View Post
I know you already said this is a flaw, but the switch to MR for the RSR was entirely driven by the rules package in LM GTE racing.

This really is no different than when BMW bent the rules to create the M3 GTR 20 years ago to try to dominate the GT category. The loophole was closed when the homologation rules was changed to requiring 100 cars + 1000 engines to be built to qualify for the GT category, and to no one's surprise BMW withdrew the car after less than a year of competing with it.
Oh I know this, if you look one post up I reiterate - "RR platform can achieve this day and age with tire and aero technology where it is.". I've been watching endurance car racing since the ALMS days.

Aero at this time is mainly driven by underbody and diffuser development. RR packaging does not allow for large/competitive diffuser. If anything it just reinforces my point.

I would also be curious to see how much of the improvements in lap time and speed between generations of 911 GT3 is down to chassis development and how much of it is due to tire technology.
RayRay88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2021, 11:24 PM   #24
TommyW
Senior Member
 
TommyW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Drives: '13 Whiteout
Location: San Clemente
Posts: 1,491
Thanks: 496
Thanked 1,242 Times in 673 Posts
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Thanks for posting. I think I’ll take 2.
TommyW is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to TommyW For This Useful Post:
WolfpackS2k (02-23-2021)
Old 02-22-2021, 11:32 PM   #25
RayRay88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Drives: 2017 86 860 Special Edition
Location: Toronto
Posts: 559
Thanks: 198
Thanked 461 Times in 241 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
With GTLM dead (and eventually GTE) I can't wait to see the new 911 GT3 R.

The Cup car looks and sounds fantastic in the meanwhile.

RayRay88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 12:11 AM   #26
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Aft c.g. generally means *less* aero stability at high speeds. Stability margin is how far in front of the center of pressure the c.g. is. If c.g. is behind the center of pressure, negative stability margin, unstable at high speed.

For land speed record runs, you add weight to the front of the car to make it more stable. If you make the mistake of adding weight to the rear of the car to "get more drive grip" on a car that's getting wheelspin and trying to go sideways at speed, you might be going for a ride, many have!
People should remove those big wings, right? More stability!

I was thinking how a long wheelbase is good for stability at the cost of agility, but so is a polar distribution. It makes turning harder, so more stability.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 12:21 AM   #27
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,882
Thanks: 5,665
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayRay88 View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. I have no problem with RWD it i's the R(ear engine)R(ear wheel drive) - RR that I think is there solely for brand identity and continuity.
I’m saying the RR GT2 RS, and the FR Mercedes AMG GT, which is not a V12 and AWD beast like the Aventador, both do just fine against a MR. The internet tends to give FF cars a hard time. They do the same to RR. Every platform has its benefits. Every platform can be made to be fast. Flawed? I don’t know. I think compromise is more accurate.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2021, 06:31 AM   #28
ZDan
Senior Member
 
ZDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,577
Thanks: 1,373
Thanked 3,883 Times in 2,027 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
People should remove those big wings, right? More stability!
No, I was gonna mention that's one reason the fast 911s have those big wings. It moves the c.p. *aft* without really moving the car's c.g., so more aero stability. And also more rear grip... Rear engine with very aft c.g. led to:

[img]http://speedhunters-wp-production.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/12130006/Porsche_Moby_****_935-78-001.jpg[/img]
Well this is stupid, you can't even have a link with "Moby ****" in the url! Pic below...

Big wing way aft => aero stability needed for very fast RR car with aft c.g. But surely it must understeer in high-speed corners!

Quote:
I was thinking how a long wheelbase is good for stability at the cost of agility, but so is a polar distribution. It makes turning harder, so more stability.
You can have a high polar moment and instability, and it's a terrible combination. It's far better to have a lower polar moment, as you have a better chance at recovering. High polar moment means once it begins to rotate it doesn't wanna stop. High polar moment is not good for handling responsiveness, but not necessarily good for handling stability either.

Most fun car I ever drove at the track was a Formula 440, a ~600 lb. 70" wheelbase single-seater with a snowmobile engine. It had about zero polar moment, very responsive of course but not twitchy or unstable, and easy recoveries
Attached Images
 

Last edited by ZDan; 02-23-2021 at 07:12 AM.
ZDan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (02-23-2021)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.